Owner will not accept loan horse back

hnmisty

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I haven't had time to trawl through all the posts, and I can see the problem from both sides. But the question for the OP has to be "What would you do if you didn't have that exit route?". In other words, what if the horse was yours? How would you put the horse first if you couldn't afford the vet bills? PTS? Suck it up and do the best for the horse? Or try and get a charity to deal with the problem? Just asking.
OP has clearly stated several times that she tried to get the loan horse insured, but wasn't able to becsuse of the owner. She also already has her own horse, which is presumably insured. thus I would presume she would therefore claim for the treatment on her insurance, much as most of us would do.

And why would that make any difference anyway? I've seen threads on here from people who can no longer claim for treatment on their insurance and they're worried about affording it on their own. They've often been told they've done the best for the horse etc and could have it PTS with a clean conscience. They haven't been lambasted for saying they can't afford the bills any more, and that's been when they've owned the horse ie had full responsibility.

Regardless of whether you think OP is morally right or not to return the horse, the issue is that the owner is refusing contact whilst the OP is paying for vets bills for a horse she doesn't want. That's hardly showing a lack of responsibility. It's quite obvious to me who is the irresponsible one here, and it's not OP.

OP is thinking of herself, you're right. She's also thinking of her own horse, and also the loan horse whose vet bills she is footing even though she plans on returning it to the owner.

Let's put this the other way- would you put your horse out on loan and then ignore all contact from the loanee? Is that what a responsible owner would do? Know that ssomeone can't afford the vets bills for it and may actually run out of money and be physically unable to pay the vets bills as much as they'd like the vet out?

Evidently some of you have so much money coming out of your ears that you never have to worry about chosing between paying the vets bills for a horse you no longer want (perfectly reasonable, the whole point to a loan) and being able to eat.

Also wonder (in my long and irritated rant, almost done, sorry!) What response OP would be getting if her reason for terminating the loan was because she was scared of the horse. I had a loan once that I was terrified of, she would pin me up against the gate. We didn't have a contract yet drawn up, and the owners had just booked an Xmas break so were keen for us to keep her. We told them if they didn't take her back we'd just drop her off at the place we got her from anyway. somehow I doubt she'd being vilified for being a coward.
 

Orangehorse

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The OP asked for advice on how to return the horse to the owner, which is fair enough. I think all you can do is write a recorded letter to the owner to say that after "date" the horse is no longer your responsibility.

(I heard of a well known eventer who threatened an owner that if the horse wasn't collected she would open the gate and let the horse loose on the road, and that was after a trial to buy!).

What I cannot understand is WHY there are still these "loan" theads appearing on H & H. There have been enough tales of woe, from both sides, about loans. If an adult takes on a valuable/expensive and living creature without thinking about the consequences and then find themselves in a spot, then I can only say, sorry, didn't you think this out in the beginning? People wouldn't do this with a car, why with a horse?

I have had horses on loan, and loaned them out, never with any problems but both sides knew where they stood from the start.
 

DW Team

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OP Could you send a registered letter to her with the effects

This letter is formal notification of formal end to the loan agreement. The horse is no longer fit for the purpose that I took on the loan horse xxx on. I require you to arrange pick up of said horse on Date or arrange to have horse PTS by this date. Yours
 

Jaycee

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Just a thought OP if you know the owners address to send a solicitors/recorded letter to, could you not just go and talk to her face to face? I think I read that it was some distance from you, but under the circumstances is it not worth a try?
 

ester

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I'm not saying she should not send him back, I'm also not saying that the owner shouldn't take him back, I think my real point is that she has come on here moaning about the situation and the owner but that in my opinion she got herself into this mess, she should have got insurance (you certainly can do that without a passport),
I am not aware of any insurance company which - if you read their T&Cs does not stipulate that the horse must be vaccinated otherwise veterinary cover is void (the same as they presume it is regularly wormed/seen by a farrier etc). The presence of the passport is irrelevant.
 
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I agree with "hnmisty" above........ having had mine on loan (and worried myself to death about him the whole time he was gone) I think the owner is taking the P. big-time TBH. She's washed her hands of HER horse, fobbed it off onto someone else and got someone who's spending a fortune on vets bills for their horse, so basically they're laughing.

Also agree with "DW Team" - tho' probably this sort of owner wouldn't give a fig about their horse anyway; they're just glad to dump their problem on someone else.

Feel very sorry for OP in this position.
 

Amymay

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I am not aware of any insurance company which - if you read their T&Cs stipulate that the horse must be vaccinated otherwise veterinary cover is void (the same as they presume it is regularly wormed/seen by a farrier etc). The presence of the passport is irrelevant.
I must admit I was scratching my head over this one last night.
 

ester

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me too, and - if the insurance decided it was a pre-existing condition they wouldn't pay out for it anways.

I think the OP has been more than fair to the horse and the owner.

(I realised I missed out a do not in my post amymay but you get the jist!)
 

el_Snowflakes

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What a mess.....do you still have access to the agreement you made on FB? If so if get a print out of it & send her a copy to show her you have proof of the deal that was made. Can you buy just drop the horse off at her yard? Poor horse :(
 

el_Snowflakes

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I think so d people are being a bit ridiculous. The point of a loan is to have a horse but not have the level of responsibility you would if you were an owner. Is never loan mine out but if I did & she became unridable I certainly wouldnt expect someone to be be paying out huge vets fees to keep MY horse.
 

Amymay

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I think so d people are being a bit ridiculous. The point of a loan is to have a horse but not have the level of responsibility you would if you were an owner.
Of course you have the same level of responsibility toward the horse as if you owned it.

However, what you also have is a 'get out' clause. Because the minute the horse is no longer wanted/required you get to return it.
 

Bobbly

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It's clear that the OP is within her rights to return the horse for whatever reason she chooses. I'm wondering if the horse has actually got a passport at all, hence the reluctance to hand it over as there may not be any recording of veterinary attendance, especially as OP had planned to vaccinate the horse. Technically then she would not be legally transporting the horse back to it's owner wherever that may be? Does OP know who passported the horse and maybe could contact them to double check that one exists? Contract or not I'd be giving the owner a notice letter stating it's return by a certain date otherwise it will be sold and the owner forwarded the proceeds. (Not less vet costs but maybe transport and sale fees).
 

jrp204

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Maybe the owner knew the horse had the condition, possibly why she's holding onto the passport & the issues with insuring it?
Its easy when you're sitting behind a computer to be rightious, as we see time and time again.
OP, good luck, you sound as if you have done everything you can with the horse re. care, vets etc.
 

dianchi

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Originally Posted by ester View Post

I am not aware of any insurance company which - if you read their T&Cs stipulate that the horse must be vaccinated otherwise veterinary cover is void (the same as they presume it is regularly wormed/seen by a farrier etc). The presence of the passport is irrelevant. I must admit I was scratching my head over this one last night.
Best check your policies then as this is in EVERY Insurance co, T's and C's!
And many will use the lack of jabs to get out of paying!

OP wouldn't have had access to the vet records for it to be proved without passport. And obv she would be declaring that the horse is loaned not owned.

OP I do hope that you send the 30 day termination and that you can get out of this situation
 

Jaycee

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Best check your policies then as this is in EVERY Insurance co, T's and C's!
And many will use the lack of jabs to get out of paying!

OP wouldn't have had access to the vet records for it to be proved without passport. And obv she would be declaring that the horse is loaned not owned.

OP I do hope that you send the 30 day termination and that you can get out of this situation

^^^
This - I have also know for insurance companies to ask for the horses passport, maybe that only applies if you are loaning the horse?
 
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^^^
This - I have also know for insurance companies to ask for the horses passport, maybe that only applies if you are loaning the horse?
both my equine and canine policies state that they won't cover conditions that aren't vaccinated against that could be. so if you opt out of equine flu and they get equine flu they wouldn't be covered for it. also anything preventative such as teeth, farriery/trimming and worming must be up to date if you are claiming anything related to it.
 

MagicMelon

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I have to say, if one of mine was on loan, I wouldn't expect the loaner to pay vets bills for an ongoing condition. Sure, minor field injuries/colic/viruses I would expect them to cover, but KS investigations or similar I most definitely would not.
I wouldn't necessarily either, however I would expect them to pay for anything that happened during their care - so I'd expect them to pay any vets bill (even for a new condition) up until their notice ended and the horse was due to be returned. Its like when I did someone a favour I thought by loaning them one of my ponies as a companion to theirs as they had had to put their other horse to sleep. She ended up letting her get laminitis, once we took her back the lady then moaned about having to have paid the vets bills for the laminitis whilst the pony was still with them - WTF?! I hate loaning horses out but am about to do the same with one of my horses (permanent loan) but am dreading it for this very reason... too many people seem to take a horse on loan then something happens and they dont want the expense so give it back to the owner - its fine giving the horse back after the notice period but until then the horse should basically be treated as if they 'own' it since its in their sole care.

Its wrong for the owner to not take the horse back - all you can do OP is give her notice and tell her the horse must be returned to her after that time. The owner should be trying to advertise her for loan or sale again right now if she doesn't want her back.
 

MrsElle

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I joined HHO back in 2007 to ask advice on the self same problem.

I took a horse on loan, had no contract, no passport and huge problems. He was not as advertised, and I rang the owner to ask her to take him back after yard owner hinting that our days were numbered on her yard due to his behaviour. Owner wouldn’t answer phone to me, or respond to texts, so I sent her a recorded delivery letter, as advised by the good people on here. She knew it was from me as it had a return postcode on it (as required for recorded delivery), so she refused to accept it and it was returned. I then text her again, saying that if she hadn’t made arrangements to remove him within seven days I would return him, either to the livery yard he came from (where she no longer had a place), or her front garden. She collected him two days later…..

I then took on another loan horse, my lovely Ellie. I treated her as my own, and due to her age she was not able to be insured, so illness and injury bills were paid for out of my pocket. I had to retire her after I had her a year, but wouldn’t have dreamt of returning her, so she lived as a rather large field ornament and nanny to my youngsters for the next two years, until I had to have her pts.

Perhaps it’s just me, but if I take on a horse I take it on through good and bad if possible, apart from the first one who was dangerous, and at 17.3 I wasn’t willing to risk my life with him.

However, circumstances change, and if this horse has an ongoing and expensive condition I understand why you may wish to return him.

I currently have a 16.3 wobbler, a 14.2 youngster who has physical and mental scars and may not ever be able to be ridden, an uncatchable Shetland and a 16.1 TB who is relatively normal. I think. All are on loan. I am a collecter of useless horses!
 

Maesfen

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I haven't read past half the first page but my basic answer would be recorded letter giving her 30 days to collect/you deliver horse back to owner and if she doesn't reply or agree with this then to say the horse will be put down on the 31st day; no qualms about it.

You were both very bloody stupid to not have a proper agreement sorted out and have brought it upon yourselves, now you need to deal with it.
 

ester

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Best check your policies then as this is in EVERY Insurance co, T's and C's!
And many will use the lack of jabs to get out of paying!

OP wouldn't have had access to the vet records for it to be proved without passport. And obv she would be declaring that the horse is loaned not owned.

OP I do hope that you send the 30 day termination and that you can get out of this situation
yup that was my point, I forgot to actually write a complete sentence :p. Queenbee suggested that the OP should have found an insurance company that didn't mind about vaccinations, I can't believe one exists.
 

pip6

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I don't see the point of many people laying into OP about what she should have done, sure she's aware of that now & can't change the past. For whatever reason she is free to return the horse after giving notice, she is the loanee, not the owner. She has paid vet bills whilst horse in her care. That others would choose to keep the horse is their personal choice, we are all different & OP has done nothing wrong.

OP, how did your visit to the solicitor go? Can you see a way to progress? If it helps, my mare has photosensitivity, I keep her away from alfalfa, sugar beet, lucerne & she is fine (thankfully doesn't need sunblock even though white grey, no pink on nose & only one sock). I also put biotin in her feed as it finds it helps to keep this & mud fever at bay. By managing her feed she leads a normal life, living out 24/7 until fields wet, then only coming in at night.
 

Noodles_3

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I don't see how the Op is the bad person in all this! Christ. She's been dam good I think, she's caring for the horse, paid out x amount of vet bills and hasn't just 'dumped' the horse back and made any rash decisions.

Okay a few silly mistakes at the beginning, no proper contract etc but you can hardly blame her for wanting to return. I find the owner is being outrageous! It is her responsibility more so than the loaner and she is acting ridiculous. Unfortunately, loans don't always work out, both parties should be aware of this but the owner should of thought about what happens if it doesn't work out. May be choosing to loan wasn't the best idea. I don't know. I just don't think Op is in the wrong in this case.
 

Spiritedly

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Of course you have the same level of responsibility toward the horse as if you owned it.

However, what you also have is a 'get out' clause. Because the minute the horse is no longer wanted/required you get to return it.
Yup and if you own the horse and it becomes no longer wanted/required you can sell it, pts or even loan it out. The op doesn't have those options so if she feels she can no longer keep it, for whatever reason, then returning it is the only thing she can do.
 
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