Pain or memory? A very interesting thing happened yesterday...

Wagtail

Wagtail

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Interesting but very frustrating! I would be very grateful for you clever HHO's to give me your opinions on this.

Some of you might know I have a horse that has gone through the kissing spines op to have 5 spinal processes removed, and that our progress was very good at first but my boy has had a few explosive reactions since. His main symptoms before the surgery, were a reluctance to canter, and a sometimes (unpredictable) explosive reaction after having the girth or lunge roller tightened. Not when you are actually tightening it, but afterwards, when he moves off. He will rear and generally throw himself about, before freezing all hunched up with his sides spasming.

I decided to have the vet to him to discuss scoping for ulcers, as the op does not appear to have cured his problems. Vet said he would scope, but really does not think he has ulcers. Anyway, he wanted to see his reaction to being girthed first hand. So sure was I that he would react, that I put my helmet on and offered one to the vet as well! Coincidentally, my boy has become very foot sore in front and was really hobbling yesterday on the hard ground. Anyway, I put his saddle on and girthed him up. Not a flutter of tension to be seen. So I tightened the girth tighter than ever before and again moved him forwards. Again not a flicker! Typcal, just when I wanted to show the vet. :mad: In fact, nothing I did could make him react to the saddle. Now this was so wierd, as I could have 100% guaranteed a reaction.

So now, this has go me thinking that maybe he was so preoccupied with the pain in his feet, that he was not at all bothered by the saddle, and that therefore the saddle pain reaction might be remembered pain? If I could be fairly sure it was remembered pain, then I would be fairly confident in pushing him through it. But if the pain is genuine, then there is no way I would want to push him through it. What do others think?

ETA, the vet does not think he has lami, just that I have removed his shoes and that the ground is hard.
 
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My own view is (which I appreciate will be most likely discounted), that very, very few horses come out of a KS surgery with final success - regardless of how successful the initial surgery was. They remain unpredictable and generally unhappy campers being ridden.

Sorry, absolutely not a positive - but just wanted to give you my views.
 
littlelegs said:
It could be remembered pain. Could you do a bute trial when his feet are ok to see if its physical or mental?
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Good suggestion. We did do a bute trial before his op and he was no different at all even though the back would have been causing him pain, so unfortunately it would not work. Also we did a trial on a horse that turned out to have ulcers. Again there was no difference in behaviour. I think that bute only covers very mild pain, and not the more acute pain.

amymay said:
My own view is (which I appreciate will be most likely discounted), that very, very few horses come out of a KS surgery with final success - regardless of how successful the initial surgery was. They remain unpredictable and generally unhappy campers being ridden.

Sorry, absolutely not a positive - but just wanted to give you my views.
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If I am honest, I think you are probably (mostly) right. I say mostly, because I think there are rare cases where the KS is the ONLY problem, and that are largely cured by the op.
 
Something stronger than bute? I agree its not that powerful. Not had need to use it for a long time so no idea if its licensed still but fynadine (sp?) Or its modern equivalent?
 
Well that was interesting and typical horse eh! Having eliminated KS pain have you considered pain in the sternum? A friend's horse was very 'girthy' and it was pressure on the sternum. Often if they have a main pain somewhere they compensate somewhere else, so he could have a problem there as well.

Acupuncture solved the problem for my friend's horse.
 
RebelRebel said:
Well that was interesting and typical horse eh! Having eliminated KS pain have you considered pain in the sternum? A friend's horse was very 'girthy' and it was pressure on the sternum. Often if they have a main pain somewhere they compensate somewhere else, so he could have a problem there as well.

Acupuncture solved the problem for my friend's horse.
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Acupuncture was something that I considered following this incident. I think it may well work for him. Obviously his sore feet rendered him completely oblivious to the saddle and girth and so I think acupuncture, though not painful in itself, would have a similar effect. Do you know how I would go about finding a practitioner?
 
Accupuncture has to be done by a vet training in it - I was looking at it a few weeks ago.

If he ends up going to a vet for accupuncture, maybe push for an ulcer scan to?

To be honest, I would be tempted to give the ulcer scan a go anyway? There are loads of posts on here about horses who were vile due to ulcers.
 
amymay said:
My own view is (which I appreciate will be most likely discounted), that very, very few horses come out of a KS surgery with final success - regardless of how successful the initial surgery was. They remain unpredictable and generally unhappy campers being ridden.

Sorry, absolutely not a positive - but just wanted to give you my views.
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I actually disagree. I think there are postive outcomes and my sister's best friend's horse is an example. He is owned by her MIL and had KS surgery a few years back (he may have been 7 or 8 yo at the time) after having been evented for a couple of years. He then had about a year or so off and then was brought back in to eventing. A couple of years later he is now competing at Intermediate and she's doing a 2 star next week andthe intention is to do 3 star next year if she can get enough under her belt. The horse certainly does not show any discomfort or dislike to being ridden. His dressage scores are improving and he never puts a foot wrong XC. I don't think a horse suffering discomfort would get that far and this is a good 2 or 3 years now after surgery.
 
Here is a link to a bit of blurbage about my vet (Dietrich), if you scroll down to Thermography it is quite interesting and then a bit further down to the acupuncture bit. Dietrich mentions the British Veterinary Acupuncturists, your vet may be on it or could refer you if he thinks it would help.

http://www.southernhillsequine.com/services.htm

Thinking about pain in general, I have found that if something is in pain, more pain tends to increase the reaction rather than just be ignored so may be it is remembered pain i.e. there is no pain so it can be ignored in the face of pain elsewhere
 
Totally disagree that KS surgery is a general failure!! Come on, that is one serious operation and the vets wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't working - they don't just open a horses back up& chop off vertebrate just for the fun of it..
Do know of many success stories, my own horse included.

The trick is nailing the rehab and persevering ! Loads of lunging long and low over poles in a Pessoa or chambon, lots of physio and H - wave( crucial) and good shoeing. Then carry on with long and low work under saddle .
 
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