Passed 5* Vetting, But..

[snowcloud]

Hello!

Just looking to bounce this off a few people to check my thoughts. Looking to buy a horse, had a 5 stage vetting yesterday, which she passed BUT the vet included some comments:

- Both eyes lower aspect of optic nerve flattened (congenital), no clinical significance and advises future monitoring.
- Straight hindlimb confirmation typical of breed (Cob type) no clinical significance now but advises of future risks.
- Under run heels on both forefeet. Negative to good testers. Advised of associated risk and correct shoeing to maintain soundness.
- Mild uniform response to flexion post exercise in all four limbs. Within acceptable limits for type, age and the fact the horse had been stabled for 48 hours prior to vetting due to yard worming protocol.

Horse is 8 this year, quite fat and unfit. To be used for general RC activities/allrounder.

Insurance companies won’t insure for LOU, all 4 legs and her eyes. Asking price is £10k, which obviously I’m not going to pay with these exclusions.

My questions are, do you have any experience with any of the above areas pointed out in the vetting? Is it worth going back with a low offer (I really like the horse!) or run away and keep on looking?

 

[throwawayaccount]

If you want to go ahead with a lower price , I think whether or not it’s worth it depends on how much you want the horse and the possibility of future vet bills, unsure what else to advise but watching this thread with interest, as I have a vetting tomorrow. I hope you get the outcome you want x

 

[milliepops]

Christ, the horse market really has gone mad.
unhelpful comment but that's the first thing that strikes me

Given that none of those things seem like total red flags...
If you're in a position to accept those caveats on the insurance then I think you have nothing to lose by going back with a low offer, they may accept it if they need to move the horse on, on the basis of the vet feedback and issues with insurance that you have mentioned.
it's quite likely that another vetting would pick up on those same things so anyone else looking to insure a horse, as many would at that price point, will have similar feelings.

 

[Nasicus]

If they're asking 10k, I can't imagine you'd be able to lower the prices to anywhere near more realistic for a fat, unfit cob with questionable feet and all it's limbs being uninsurable
By all means try though!

 

[ihatework]

I’m frustrated on your behalf OP.
Vets are so scared of comeback these days that they cover their back so extensively they virtually void insurance.

In the good old days you would have got your certificate and insurance and the vet would have chatted you through what they found.

Can’t hurt trying to negotiate on price and see where that gets you? Then save the difference for vets bills and take out a £300 kbis catastrophe cover?

 

[IrishMilo]

The bottom three points wouldn't bother me. I don't know enough about the first to comment.

The underrun heels are pretty much a non issue as they can be fixed. That being said there's no way I'd pay 10k.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

£10k for an 8yo fat, unfit, conformationally challenged horse with genetic abnormalities in the eyes and questionable farriery to this point is insanity in itself to me.

 

[eggs]

You could try to get a reduction in the price but as the horse has been passed as suitable for proposed use then the current owner may not be prepared to budge - it depends on how quickly they want to make a sale. £10k does seem pretty steep for a fat, unfit cob. I would have a slight concern that the horse has had a problem and so been off work if it is unfit - were you able to get the previous vet history?

The heels and straight hind leg is something that any buyer could spot and is pretty common in cobs and it wasn't helpful to have these points written down but the insurance company is taking a rather strong approach to exclusions. It might be worth ringing around some other companies if you really do want this horse.

 

[teddy_]

If you do proceed, negotiate hard on price OP.

£10,000 for a 'fat and unfit' cob with uninsurable limbs sounds dreadfully steep, even by today's standards ?.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

If you do proceed, negotiate hard on price OP.

£10,000 for a 'fat and unfit' cob with uninsurable limbs sounds dreadfully steep, even by today's standards ?.

Not related to this post but the bay in your display photo is absolutely beautiful - just my cup of tea!

 

[Birker2020]

Hello!

Just looking to bounce this off a few people to check my thoughts. Looking to buy a horse, had a 5 stage vetting yesterday, which she passed BUT the vet included some comments:

- Both eyes lower aspect of optic nerve flattened (congenital), no clinical significance and advises future monitoring.
- Straight hindlimb confirmation typical of breed (Cob type) no clinical significance now but advises of future risks.
- Under run heels on both forefeet. Negative to good testers. Advised of associated risk and correct shoeing to maintain soundness.
- Mild uniform response to flexion post exercise in all four limbs. Within acceptable limits for type, age and the fact the horse had been stabled for 48 hours prior to vetting due to yard worming protocol.

Horse is 8 this year, quite fat and unfit. To be used for general RC activities/allrounder.

Insurance companies won’t insure for LOU, all 4 legs and her eyes. Asking price is £10k, which obviously I’m not going to pay with these exclusions.

My questions are, do you have any experience with any of the above areas pointed out in the vetting? Is it worth going back with a low offer (I really like the horse!) or run away and keep on looking?

I wouldn't. All the 'advises of future risks' and I'm not a risk taker.

I gambled on this current horse, put a huge amount of money into buying him which I had no intention of doing before I started my horse search (but loved his attitude and the way he rode) and although he flew the vetting I have since questionned my judgement. Although I love him very much.

I think having had so many vet bills in the past if the vet advised me of any future risks I'd not buy such an animal. The flexion wouldn't bother me as the RCVS were considering doing away with this part of the vetting at one stage anyway as its not always a very effective way of indicating future issues.

If your insurance company won't pay LOU for her legs/eyes would they class these as exclusions even if you didn't want LOU?

But if you want to go ahead because you are struggling to find something, or there's something in her you see (like I did with mine) I'd make a cheeky offer, after all they can only say no.

 

[teddy_]

Not related to this post but the bay in your display photo is absolutely beautiful - just my cup of tea!

Ah, thank you so much!

She is a Trakehner mare by Gribaldi. Sadly damaged in her formative years in Germany (hind suspensory), so is only up to light work ?.

 

[ycbm]

I'm afraid I wouldn't buy without hock x rays and hind suspensory scans because I have too often seen underrun front feet associated with hind limb or back pain, and straight hind limbs associated with PSD.
.

 

[Kaylum]

Why is it fat and unfit that in itself would bother me and why was it in the stable for 48 hours before hand and the yard had wormed? Lots of things just do not add up. Did you ride the horse when you viewed?

Gosh when we sold horses we presented them to their best of fitness and potential. Put the work in to get them looking that way. Now anyone is throwing a 10k price tag on anything.

Have you put a deposit down? Is it from a dealer?

 

[PeterNatt]

I would walk away as the asking price is rediculous with the issues it has. What do you want to do with your new horses?

 

[Ratface]

Given the list of concerns raised by the vet on examination of the cob, I would walk away.
Perhaps continue to enjoy the occasional ride on your lovely Trakhener mare and keep looking.

 

[AFB]

TBH I don't think any of the vetting points would put me off and I don't insure anyway so it wouldn't be an issue for me in that respect, however I wouldn't entertain the thought of spending £10k on an 8yo cob that isn't even in peak condition.
If it was fit & ready to go out competing tomorrow then I would probably go to £6k, I'm aware I'm out of touch with current horse prices but that's ridiculous.

 

[laura_nash]

Other than the first point, possibly, I don't think any of those are really very surprising and I'd be surprised if they will drop the price based on them. I gave up on insurance for vets fees years ago, they exclude so easily and widely now. Do you know why the horse was out of work and fat (mine was when I got him but it was a valid reason)? The price seems utterly crazy to me, but I know I'm out of touch.

 

[onemoretime]

There are plenty more horses out there, I would walk away from this one. We get enough trouble with our horses without buying trouble.

 

[Littlebear]

Taking away from the 10k for an unfit cob which you already knew when going ahead with the vetting at that price, I would not be massively put off by any of that if I wanted a lower level allrounder, I have bought horses with far worse vet reports that have done the job I wanted really well.

I assume the horse has many redeeming qualities for you to have wanted to buy it for that price in the first place.

There is no perfect horse, perfect specimen, especially for 10k, the worst horse problems I have had strangely were the ones with clean vet reports.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

The horse is VERY overpriced even in this crazy market - if you really, really like it then I would only be offering 5k and keeping back the other 5k for future vet bills, which I am certain you will have.

I am afraid the sceptic in me wonders why on earth you would keep a horse holed up for 48 hours prior to a 5 stage vetting, very odd altogether. Or was it just a red herring to suggest to vet and you flexions etc. not being great just because it had been in for 48 hours?

Actually thinking about it further, I would walk away, at £10,000 there are plenty more out there that will come with a clean 5 stage vetting and no insurance exclusions, just not worth the risk iMO.

Edited to add so sorry cross posted with almost everyone else as I obviously wasn't typing fast enough!

 

[[153312]]

Walk away and count yourself lucky. Something isn't adding up with the seller's approach to me and that price is completely ridiculous, unless it poos gold nuggets. I'd be worried that the fatness/unfitness, on top of conformational issues, suggests it either already has issues (and hence not being worked much), or will develop them very soon as a result of being overweight and effectively built dodgy. It's a risk really not worth taking IMHO.
Pretty rare that there's almost unanimous agreement about something on HHO

 

[Gamebird]

I’m frustrated on your behalf OP.
Vets are so scared of comeback these days that they cover their back so extensively they virtually void insurance.

In the good old days you would have got your certificate and insurance and the vet would have chatted you through what they found.

I agree with you to a point, but you've got to ask why? I've been vetting horses for over 20 years, and up to 10 years ago I would have done exactly as you suggest - chat through the findings, but probably put very little of it on the certificate, given it's mostly of little clinical significance. Unfortunately the incidence of complaints and litigation from horse purchasers over the last decade has risen massively to the point that we absolutely have to cover our behinds now. Purchasers don't seem to want pragmatic, they want perfect. And unless we put all of our findings in writing we have no way to defend ourselves sadly. Chatting through the findings verbally will not stand up in any legal proceedings. It's a shame as I'd count myself amongst the pragmatic, but sadly I can't afford to be any more. It's not fear - certainly not on my behalf - it's caution.

OP - nothing in your post sounds to be of great clinical concern, except for the price!

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

If they're asking 10k, I can't imagine you'd be able to lower the prices to anywhere near more realistic for a fat, unfit cob with questionable feet and all it's limbs being uninsurable
By all means try though!

£10k for an 8yo fat, unfit, conformationally challenged horse with genetic abnormalities in the eyes and questionable farriery to this point is insanity in itself to me.

10K for that? I could have pointed you in the direction of something sound a few months back for far less. That’s insane money.

 

[milliepops]

There's an awkward circular thing with horse prices, cost of vet treatment and insurance all combining to make this a bit of a spiralling problem i would think.
I've had way more paid out than i've paid in to my insurance policies over the years and that isn't sustainable so the insurers must have to tighten up all the time to avoid ending up with a bad business model. but the cost of treatments available now to anyone who wants them is increasing as more things become possible, and people have spent so much on horses they can't afford to just chuck them in a field and hope Dr Green works its magic... so insurance is important to many of us, and then vets can't afford to be done over by a client whose horse turned out to be a duffer. What a nightmare!!

 

[ihatework]

I agree with you to a point, but you've got to ask why? I've been vetting horses for over 20 years, and up to 10 years ago I would have done exactly as you suggest - chat through the findings, but probably put very little of it on the certificate, given it's mostly of little clinical significance. Unfortunately the incidence of complaints and litigation from horse purchasers over the last decade has risen massively to the point that we absolutely have to cover our behinds now. Purchasers don't seem to want pragmatic, they want perfect. And unless we put all of our findings in writing we have no way to defend ourselves sadly. Chatting through the findings verbally will not stand up in any legal proceedings. It's a shame as I'd count myself amongst the pragmatic, but sadly I can't afford to be any more. It's not fear - certainly not on my behalf - it's caution.

OP - nothing in your post sounds to be of great clinical concern, except for the price!

Completely what I was getting at!
This sounds like a ‘normal’ vetting to me. Horse passed. Horse not perfect (none are) but fit for the purpose.

 

[J&S]

All I can say is: 10k ?????? Sounds like a very ordinary cob with these advisaries, but the price, OMG, where is every one getting this money from to spend on horses?

 

[ycbm]

Completely what I was getting at!
This sounds like a ‘normal’ vetting to me. Horse passed. Horse not perfect (none are) but fit for the purpose.

I wouldn't expect off steps on all four flexions on an 8 year old though? I think if I was dead keen on the horse I'd ask for those to be redone when the horse had not been stood in for 48 hours.
.

 

[mariew]

All I can say is: 10k ?????? Sounds like a very ordinary cob with these advisaries, but the price, OMG, where is every one getting this money from to spend on horses?

Lol I know, from description I thought it was 2-3k maybe. I am so out of touch.

 

[IrishMilo]

I really don't count flexions as reliable indicators for general soundness. In fact I think they're a very dated way of assessing.