Passed 5* Vetting, But..
- Thread starter snowcloud
- Start date
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
The same methods as used in a lameness work up bar the flexions (trot up, lunged on circle on soft/hard footing). Horses aren't flexed during soundness tests at 5* level so I'm not sure why they still are during home vettings.
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I've been told by two separate vets that flexion tests aren't an accurate gauge of soundness either. A lot of 'sound' horses fail flexions. Don't think the failed flexions are the main issue with the OP horse.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Competition is only if they are fit to compete that day. The vetting is to try to second guess whether they will remain sound for years.
I've seen flexions catch "navicular" that appeared a few weeks after sale, a bone chip on the fetlock, a shoulder muscle strain and early hock spavin.
I wouldn't pay for a 5 stage sales vetting without them, personally.
AandK
Well-Known Member
If you really like the horse, and are happy with the insurance exclusions, then put in a lower offer. The vetting findings wouldn't bother me personally, but I'd want a huge lump off the overinflated asking price to make taking a punt on the horse worth the risk.
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with that (the latter bit) - IMO the vetting is to bring any current issues to light so buyers can make an informed decision as to whether or not to make the purchase based on what the vet finds on that given day.
My_breadbagel
Well-Known Member
My horse has the straight hind limb and so far it hasn’t caused much of an issue. We did have an arthritic scare last year (due to “odd” steps and a mild reaction to a flexion test. My vet admitted that it was only the fact that I had highlighted something and it was not major) but after saddle fit Issues arose and we fixed it- bam symptoms gone. He hasn’t been flexed since but I don’t see the need- why worry?
Don’t give up on a horse because of a couple “maybes”. If you like the horse and it passed (under bad circumstances!!!!!) go for it. £10k is too much anyways for an unfit cob. I’d charge £10k for my schooled, honest, low mileage, weight carrier gentleman
My_breadbagel
Well-Known Member
My horse somewhat failed a flexion (just slightly stiff for two strides! But a slower recovery than the other limb). Strangely, two weeks later my saddler came out and said “oh look, he’s pulled a muscle!” In his back, coinciding with that leg.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. The vetting exposes issues found on the day and the vet makes a judgement so that the buyer can make an informed decision whether they think the horse will stay sound in the coming years to do what they are buying it for. Vettings aren't only to find out whether the horse is sound on that day, they are for whether the horse is likely to continue to stay sound with the proposed workload. ETA otherwise only an absolutely perfect horse could ever pass.
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Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with this. Any vettings I have had done both as a seller and a buyer, have been done with the intent of a buyer knowing, based on any issues, that the vet may have found at the actual time of vetting would be likely to negatively impact on any disciplines the buyer intends to use the horse for.
Is the probability likely that it will stand up the the rigours of hunting right through the season, or professional show jumping, maybe a dressage diva's mount, or even a nice steady happy hacker etc. etc.
I think we tend to hear too much of this 'was sound on the day' being bandied about these days, as though paying for a vetting guarantees and tells the buyer jack shite frankly! Why bother to vet then?. You pay a good sum for a 5 stage vetting, I would expect a professional and experienced equine vet to at least give me a good educated odds on if the horse be fit and able for the job I intend to do with it.
Perhaps I expect too much from my vet, but I haven't been let down so far when I have bothered to have a horse vetted, usually the more expensive ones I have to say!
scats
Well-Known Member
Good grief, a fat and unfit cob with not great conformation for £10k??
I imagined I’d get about 8k for Millie in this market (she’s absolutely not for sale), but I’m starting to think she’s worth a whole lot more!
Unless you can get a significant price reduction on this horse OP, I personally wouldn’t take the chance. Not at that price.
I imagined I’d get about 8k for Millie in this market (she’s absolutely not for sale), but I’m starting to think she’s worth a whole lot more!
Unless you can get a significant price reduction on this horse OP, I personally wouldn’t take the chance. Not at that price.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Jeez. I just don't get what people expect from a living, breathing animal. None of those things are, as a stated, of "clinical significance". There is no such thing as a perfect horse.
If I was the seller I wouldn't budge on the price, why should I, the horse has passed a 5 stage vetting.
10k isn't a lot of money NOW for a nice, safe horse however fat and unfit and however non perfect it's conformation is.
If I was the seller I wouldn't budge on the price, why should I, the horse has passed a 5 stage vetting.
10k isn't a lot of money NOW for a nice, safe horse however fat and unfit and however non perfect it's conformation is.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Just on this- I don't see why people don't get their working horses regularly looked at by a vet tbh even if nothing seems wrong. We spend so much money on farriers, physios, chiros, saddlers, bit fitting. Fluffy numnahs and matchy matchy. Why don't people just get their horses trotted up and flexioned every 6 months or so? Why would you not want to know if something was starting ie mild arthiritis, so you can manage it as early on as possible and limit the chances of secondary issues developing?
I really think most horse owners spend money with the wrong professionals. For £100 I can ensure my horse is sound, isn't working with anything (untreated) underlying and is in the best possible nick to do everything I ask of him. I wonder how many horses would end up less completley broken if owners MOT'd their horses more regularly with their vets and things got spotted before the horse had to tell them.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Michen
Well-Known Member
But that's not the sellers problem? If it's genuinely worth the 10k, which I don't doubt in this market, they could sell to someone else who would have a different vet who may not write such a detailed account of non clinically significant things on a vet cert. Or they sell to someone who doesn't want to insure, which the way things are going I'm sure many wouldn't because at this rate everything will be uninsurable!
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people do do this when their vet comes to do vaccinations and stuff?!?!
Melody Grey
Well-Known Member
Pricewise, That’s where my mind was too! Sounds like a bit of a punt.
Michen
Well-Known Member
I really don't think they do tbh. My vet says most of his clients utilise the free call out for jabs so it's a quick in and out. Generally, unless there's a problem or it's a high value horse there are very few "MOT's" with a vet.
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oh wow. I didn't know that. When we've had the vet out they normally check everyone over - especially now the shetland gets regular cushings blood tests - but even before that was happening they do general health checks before administering jabs. They will discuss husbandry/management too. I do tend to try and wring as much expertise out of the animal professionals we see as possible though - not in a bad way, just 'well you're here so I'm going to ask questions and learn as much as possible in the time available'.
Kaylum
Well-Known Member
Was it even in for 48 hours or is that a lie for the vetting in case it showed up something.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I do think that uninsurability reduces a horse's value. Sure they can take a risk on another vetting. They might get a softer one, they might get a harder one (because ime it really isn't normal for an 8 year old to take off steps on all 4) or the horse might ping a tendon during the delay and make itself unfit for sale (this last happened to a friend of mine, horse was sold, pinged a tendon being a prat turned out, just before the vet arrived. )
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AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Horsequest 270158 probably sold but realistically priced and decent type to have fun on by the look of him.
Not being able to insure all four legs or eyes on a new purchase would have me running for the hills.
Not being able to insure all four legs or eyes on a new purchase would have me running for the hills.
Melody Grey
Well-Known Member
Indeed. There is also the possibility that should any back problems emerge, they may not be covered if the insurer deemed them to be related on the back of such a detailed vetting.....leaving really not a lot left to insure!!
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
My present vet and my previous ones have ALL done a MOT yearly as a matter of course when doing jabs, I thought that was normal? If my present one comes out to see any horse or the donkeys he always gives my retired mare that had/has Lymes a good check over just to satisfy himself she is still doing as well as we can expect. He does not charge me any extra for doing this, perhaps he feels the several thousand we spent with him and other specialists just getting her through it all justifies regular freebie check ups when he is here! 
snowcloud
Member
Thank you for all of your responses, this has been really thought provoking.
For those wondering why the horse in question is fat and unfit, it is owned by an older lady in her seventies (also a BHS qualified instructor) that does the odd hack out here and there. All the yard seemed to speak highly of the horse (but if she’s that great, why hasn’t anyone locally snapped her up right?).
I viewed and rode the horse in all gaits, jumped her and hacked alone. She was forward, off the leg, up for it and seemed to want more of a job - perfect, so I thought!
Thinking about the worming thing i.e stabled for 2 days - they did this on my old yard but over a weekend so owners could take their horses out on longer hacks to make up for lack of turnout (not during the week). Could be just a weird coincidence, but I’m getting more suspicious!
For those wondering why the horse in question is fat and unfit, it is owned by an older lady in her seventies (also a BHS qualified instructor) that does the odd hack out here and there. All the yard seemed to speak highly of the horse (but if she’s that great, why hasn’t anyone locally snapped her up right?).
I viewed and rode the horse in all gaits, jumped her and hacked alone. She was forward, off the leg, up for it and seemed to want more of a job - perfect, so I thought!
Thinking about the worming thing i.e stabled for 2 days - they did this on my old yard but over a weekend so owners could take their horses out on longer hacks to make up for lack of turnout (not during the week). Could be just a weird coincidence, but I’m getting more suspicious!
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
I have a good cob, originally insured with KBIS. in 2013 she had a fall in the field and had a tiny tear to her meniscus, barely lame but was looked at. That resulted in both hind legs and pelvis excluded. A year or so after she was looked at for minor lameness in front, she was barefoot at the time and a decision was made to shoe her, her records showed footsore. Insurer decided she was lami risk and excluded both front feet and legs. Then they noted she had dectomax jabs so they excluded her skin. I gave up at that point and she has been a colic prone horse for years now and cost me a fortune. Good job I love her.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
If the vet said that the flexions being slightly off were to be expected in a horse which had been in for 48 hours, then they should be improved when she has not been in for 48 hours and I would request that they be redone and reject her if they are not improved.
She really is expensive for what you are describing, she needs to be spot on ime.
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SEL
Well-Known Member
Could you ask for flexions to be redone? The price makes me wince but isn't out of line with what I've seen in other adverts depressingly
Michen
Well-Known Member
My present vet and my previous ones have ALL done a MOT yearly as a matter of course when doing jabs, I thought that was normal? If my present one comes out to see any horse or the donkeys he always gives my retired mare that had/has Lymes a good check over just to satisfy himself she is still doing as well as we can expect. He does not charge me any extra for doing this, perhaps he feels the several thousand we spent with him and other specialists just getting her through it all justifies regular freebie check ups when he is here!
What do you mean by check over though? Does he trot the horse up? Look at it on the hard? Flex it?
I am essentially talking about a full lameness check. Certainly my vet says that rarely is he asked to do one unless someone suspects a problem.
SO1
Well-Known Member
It does sound like a 10k horse if insurable especially if it is a taller cob over 14h who is a good weight carrier. The market for safe hacking horses suitable for novice or nervous rider which jumps and is easy is very strong at the moment. Safety and fun for someone not wanting to reach top levels of competition is a premium.
However the problem is the legs are excluded for insurance as well as eyes. It means any leg problems from soft tissue injuries to arthritis or a field accident with a cut or anything that could happen to leg you will need to pay.
My pony now 19 passed a 5 stage vetting aged 5 14 years ago. He is insured. He had three leg problems in 14 years. A broken split bone, a hind suspensory injury and tendonitis in a foreleg all have been covered by insurance and probably over 10k worth of vet treatment. If something like this happened to your cob whose legs are all excluded it would be a lot of money.
A vetting is a fit for purpose exam. A horse can be fit for purpose on the day vetted and completely sound but still have faults that may predispose them to issues in the future.
What the vet is saying is that this horse is sound but that are some issues that may cause a problem in future.
I had a pony vetted 15 years ago and one of the things vet said was that the pony was very overweight and whilst there was no signs of laminitis now there was risk he could come down with it especially if not very careful with grazing. I didn't go ahead with the purchase as it had a cateract and bucked the rider off during the vetting.
It is not just the insurance but should you want to sell this horse in future having legs excluded it might put others off as well if the issues are bought up at a vetting.
I would walk away but if you really like this horse put in a cheeky offer for 6k and explain as the vets comment mean that all four legs are excluded which is a real risk for even accidents that you would have to put away funds to cover any issues with the legs even things cellulitis mallanders and mites which are real cob issues would be excluded.
However the problem is the legs are excluded for insurance as well as eyes. It means any leg problems from soft tissue injuries to arthritis or a field accident with a cut or anything that could happen to leg you will need to pay.
My pony now 19 passed a 5 stage vetting aged 5 14 years ago. He is insured. He had three leg problems in 14 years. A broken split bone, a hind suspensory injury and tendonitis in a foreleg all have been covered by insurance and probably over 10k worth of vet treatment. If something like this happened to your cob whose legs are all excluded it would be a lot of money.
A vetting is a fit for purpose exam. A horse can be fit for purpose on the day vetted and completely sound but still have faults that may predispose them to issues in the future.
What the vet is saying is that this horse is sound but that are some issues that may cause a problem in future.
I had a pony vetted 15 years ago and one of the things vet said was that the pony was very overweight and whilst there was no signs of laminitis now there was risk he could come down with it especially if not very careful with grazing. I didn't go ahead with the purchase as it had a cateract and bucked the rider off during the vetting.
It is not just the insurance but should you want to sell this horse in future having legs excluded it might put others off as well if the issues are bought up at a vetting.
I would walk away but if you really like this horse put in a cheeky offer for 6k and explain as the vets comment mean that all four legs are excluded which is a real risk for even accidents that you would have to put away funds to cover any issues with the legs even things cellulitis mallanders and mites which are real cob issues would be excluded.