Passed 5* Vetting, But..

[Mrs. Jingle]

What do you mean by check over though? Does he trot the horse up? Look at it on the hard? Flex it?

I am essentially talking about a full lameness check. Certainly my vet says that rarely is he asked to do one unless someone suspects a problem.

No not a full lameness check, we know she is not sound and never will be again sadly. It is just an assessment is she any worse as far as that goes, so trotted up, reversed and sharp turn in both directions tells us all we need to know. Heart, lungs, eyes, teeth, closely inspects girth groove, groin and chin groove and spine. Pretty much it really, but considering she is retired and we are only interested in keeping her field happy I am very pleased he does that for free to be honest.

 

[Michen]

No not a full lameness check, we know she is not sound and never will be again sadly. It is just an assessment is she any worse as far as that goes, so trotted up, reversed and sharp turn in both directions tells us all we need to know. Heart, lungs, eyes, teeth, closely inspects girth groove, groin and chin groove and spine. Pretty much it really, but considering she is retired and we are only interested in keeping her field happy I am very pleased he does that for free to be honest.

Yep sorry so crossed wires. I’m talking about a lameness check so at the very least a trot up in a straight line and flexions, a little look on the hard if there’s a suitable place to do it or the lunge. I can understand why you wouldn’t do it for a horse you know is not sound but I don’t understand why people don’t do it more regularly, even if just yearly, to try and catch things before the horse is showing a problem. I wonder how many arthritic horses could be caught and medicated/managed early, therefore not going on to compensate in other areas- for example. Or minor foot balance issues found before the horse is overtly lame in a straight line.

 

[Gloi]

I'm afraid I wouldn't buy without hock x rays and hind suspensory scans because I have too often seen underrun front feet associated with hind limb or back pain, and straight hind limbs associated with PSD.
.

My first thought was PSD

 

[Coblette]

My first thought was PSD

Me too, unfortunately I’d not consider a horse which the vet had described as straight legged for this reason

 

[Gloi]

Me too, unfortunately I’d not consider a horse which the vet had described as straight legged for this reason

Especially when linked to the underrun heels in front.

 

[Bernster]

These vettings do cause such an issue for insurance though. I had the same with my most recent vetting - picked up minor things which didn’t impact soundness but I got exclusions as a result.

With all 4 legs excluded that is very tricky for insurance. You could try a different company?

 

[Sossigpoker]

None of those would massively concern me as my vet is an orthopaedic one and I trust his judgement.
Does this cob have a record of working at a certain level? Or why do they think a 10K price tag is warranted?
If it's just a fat and unfit cob but one that moves well and shows aptitude to learning , I might offer up to 5K at a push but even in today's market , 10K is , frankly , taking the pish!

 

[SusieT]

For me, the vet may well by raising red flags as in they are suspicious this horse is not conformationally sound.
10k fora horse that has just been hacked ? is a lot. Especially if conformationally unsound. I'd pass - as it will also be uninsurable if that is important to you.

 

[horsimous]

I consider all horses to be future risks, either to themselves or their future owners.

what would bother me here, is not having complete insurance cover for a 10K horse.

 

[SEL]

What do you mean by check over though? Does he trot the horse up? Look at it on the hard? Flex it?

I am essentially talking about a full lameness check. Certainly my vet says that rarely is he asked to do one unless someone suspects a problem.

You have a very good vet with a good eye though I think. I've never found a trot up on the yard much use apart from the obvious head bopping lame. I trotted the NQR Appy up for dozens of vets who struggled and kept insisting on flexion testing an obviously sore horse (until she started to kick) - it was me who insisted on the ligament scans in the end. In fact the best eye for lameness I've seen recently was a newly qualified vet physio.

And having been on many livery yards where the vet isn't even called for obvious lameness, then I think the maintenance callouts are pretty rare!

 

[Michen]

You have a very good vet with a good eye though I think. I've never found a trot up on the yard much use apart from the obvious head bopping lame. I trotted the NQR Appy up for dozens of vets who struggled and kept insisting on flexion testing an obviously sore horse (until she started to kick) - it was me who insisted on the ligament scans in the end. In fact the best eye for lameness I've seen recently was a newly qualified vet physio.

And having been on many livery yards where the vet isn't even called for obvious lameness, then I think the maintenance callouts are pretty rare!

I do but I’ve used plenty of vets before I found “the one” and I’d still include a mini lameness work up at least yearly for any working horse.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that people spend so much money getting things like saddles checked but not whether their horse is developing a problem or is lame after flexion. It’s great to build up a pattern so you know what’s normal for the horse too and then you can monitor if or when things change.

 

[Annagain]

As a guide, my friend just paid £10k for hunting fit, very well bred (by Avanti Amorous Archie) rising 6 ID x cob who is beautifully mannered, jumping 80cm courses, doing a sweet prelim test and who flew through his vetting.

Negotiate. Hard.

 

[scats]

I do but I’ve used plenty of vets before I found “the one” and I’d still include a mini lameness work up at least yearly for any working horse.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that people spend so much money getting things like saddles checked but not whether their horse is developing a problem or is lame after flexion. It’s great to build up a pattern so you know what’s normal for the horse too and then you can monitor if or when things change.

Im very lucky in that my Chiro is a vet Chiro (she used to be my vet). She does a full assessment of mine every 3 months- on the straight on the hard and on the lunge. Expensive but worth every penny for peace of mind, and catching niggles early.

 

[TheLoneWanderer]

There is a really really good article on FB about flexion tests how in reality there are seriously outdated abd basically away to force an issue when there isn't one. I would pay no mind to the vets notes at all apart from eyes. The vet that has done the examination over board and made the horse un insurable which is seriously bad form.

 

[Michen]

There is a really really good article on FB about flexion tests how in reality there are seriously outdated abd basically away to force an issue when there isn't one. I would pay no mind to the vets notes at all apart from eyes. The vet that has done the examination over board and made the horse un insurable which is seriously bad form.

One article yet still used by most professionals up and down the country. How can they not be useful when usually flexion = unsound = problem. My horse flexes positive when his hocks need medicating. He doesn't when they don't. I'm not saying they don't have their limitations though

 

[Gamebird]

There is a really really good article on FB about flexion tests how in reality there are seriously outdated abd basically away to force an issue when there isn't one. I would pay no mind to the vets notes at all apart from eyes. The vet that has done the examination over board and made the horse un insurable which is seriously bad form.

The poor vet really can't win, can (s)he? The purchaser is paying a large amount of money to have the vet go over a horse with a fine toothcomb and find any potential or actual issues. The vet has exactly fulfilled the brief, and conducted a thorough 5 stage Pre Purchase Examination, as dictated by the standards laid out by the RCVS/BEVA. Yet when (s)he does exactly what has been requested, s(he) gets accused of going overboard.

 

[[153312]]

this thread makes me glad I am not an equine vet, and cements the fact that I would never have any interest in going into the field....!

 

[Leandy]

On the insurability point it is of course insurance companies which are unrealistic about taking on risk, not vets in pointing it out. All living, breathing animals are at risk in some way and all have strengths and weaknesses. The vet has been paid to point out certain of the weaknesses he finds. It is the insurance company which then decides it is not a risk they are willing to insure. The trouble with insurance companies is that they want to take your money but not bear the risk. Logically, if they have excluded the risker parts of the horse like all four legs, the insurance premium should go down, but it never does, they just add exclusions but still expect the full premium. Hence there is no incentive for them to consider more carefully what they are excluding and whether they really need to do so. If exclusions also led to decreased premiums, they might be more reasonable.

 

[Polos Mum]

If you really like the horse i would re-vet and politely ask them to focus on the issues last time to check they are better after turn out / bit of hacking.

Then you'll have less of a shopping list to negotiate with the insurance company on. Which would then be my next step, if the vet has 1 or 2 findings firmly of "no clinical significance" then the insurance should limit exclusions.

Do you want to do as little work as he's doing now? The combination of straight hind limbs, under run heels etc. might be OK in a horse in light work but if you want to do a lot more I'd be really nervous that those things start to become more problematic.
I might also get a physo to really check his back (both issues can manifest as back pain)

I learned the hard way that horses can be sound at a low level of work but not when you want to do more cantering, the odd jumping clinic.

I wouldn't buy a horse for £10k that is not doing the level of work I wanted them to do with me. You just have no idea how they will react to that step up in work.

 

[AdorableAlice]

As a guide, my friend just paid £10k for hunting fit, very well bred (by Avanti Amorous Archie) rising 6 ID x cob who is beautifully mannered, jumping 80cm courses, doing a sweet prelim test and who flew through his vetting.

Negotiate. Hard.

Adorable Alice wants to watch her step, I might have to cash her in.

 

[ycbm]

One article yet still used by most professionals up and down the country. How can they not be useful when usually flexion = unsound = problem. My horse flexes positive when his hocks need medicating. He doesn't when they don't. I'm not saying they don't have their limitations though

This. Worth repeating, I think, that my own experience is a horse of mine who was perfectly sound failed a flexion on a front leg due to an unknown shoulder muscle strain that required rest, another where I was the buyer which disclosed early navicular but the vet persuaded me otherwise, and that friends have been alerted to bone chips in joints and hock arthritis by them.

They have a use, ime.
.

 

[flying_high]

Yep sorry so crossed wires. I’m talking about a lameness check so at the very least a trot up in a straight line and flexions, a little look on the hard if there’s a suitable place to do it or the lunge. I can understand why you wouldn’t do it for a horse you know is not sound but I don’t understand why people don’t do it more regularly, even if just yearly, to try and catch things before the horse is showing a problem. I wonder how many arthritic horses could be caught and medicated/managed early, therefore not going on to compensate in other areas- for example. Or minor foot balance issues found before the horse is overtly lame in a straight line.

I think I am similarly careful.

My horse has regular physio and chiropractic treatment, and both ask to see him move. Physio on lunge as well as trotted up. Both have a good eye for any minor blips.

I have just recently done a soundness vet assessment (as a follow up from an August issue).

I had foot x-rays for a balance issue in August, will do follow ups in March and then do annual foot balance x-rays.

I look at it slightly differently, as in I like my vet to know how my horse moves, and know is normal so they can see if there is an issue quickly. It is harder to do if you dont know the horse's baseline movement and you are looking for something subtle.

I do agree with the old saying, "an ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure!"

 

[Michen]

I think I am similarly careful.

My horse has regular physio and chiropractic treatment, and both ask to see him move. Physio on lunge as well as trotted up. Both have a good eye for any minor blips.

I have just recently done a soundness vet assessment (as a follow up from an August issue).

I had foot x-rays for a balance issue in August, will do follow ups in March and then do annual foot balance x-rays.

I look at it slightly differently, as in I like my vet to know how my horse moves, and know is normal so they can see if there is an issue quickly. It is harder to do if you dont know the horse's baseline movement and you are looking for something subtle.

I do agree with the old saying, "an ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure!"

Yep I also get the yearly foot x rays. It baffles me people would spend their money on a fluffy numnah but not want to spend it on their vet.

 

[Gamebird]

Yep I also get the yearly foot x rays. It baffles me people would spend their money on a fluffy numnah but not want to spend it on their vet.

I know quite a few clinics that offer this MOT lameness service, particularly at this time of year, but find take up very low. I really like the lameness locater systems for this. You can get a baseline then do twice yearly (or whatever) comparisons that will show up very small changes. The human eye can only detect changes in gait once they become more obvious, and it's very much subjective. Different people will grade things differently. This gives an objective measure. It's good also for the 'he's always moved like that' cases too - often you find that actually the horse is gradually getting worse, but because it's over a long period of time the deterioration doesn't get picked up on until it's major.

 

[LegOn]

In Ireland, we dont have any insurer who will cover veterinary treatments. To get lose of use cover, your premium is extortionate and the only 'standard' vet cover is for life-saving surgery which only covers costs up to €4000 (or thereabouts) so very few people insure anymore. I have insurance for public liability and personal accident cover but gave up on horse insurance a while ago.

But it would be interesting to see how to it affects our vettings and purchasing process - I've NEVER seen that level of detail on a vet cert over here. I think you are all correst in saying those kind of findings would be in discussion with the buyer rather than detailed on the cert. And we are still experiencing the same price boom in horses. I do think £10K over here would get you alot more than the OP's cob that was described but then again would our vettings have been as thorough!