Passport proof of ownership

[bexcy-bee]

Please can someone point me in the direction of where to find an official site saying that passports aren't proof of ownership please. Friend has a horse on loan and the owner won't give it to them as they want to keep it as proof of ownership

Thanks

Bexcy-bee x

 

[Elbie]

Hmm...know I've seen it somewhere but can't find it.

However. they can direct the owner to this https://www.gov.uk/horse-passport
which states that the rider/keeper must have the passport with them

 

[Elbie]

Oooh found this site http://www.dwf.co.uk/news/legal-updates/a-brief-guide-to-the-horse-passport-regulations-2009

Under the section "Proof of Ownership and Travelling" it states "The majority of people who have horses with passports are under the mistaken impression that possession of the passport is sufficient evidence to prove they are the owner. The Regulations state that the passport is to confirm the identity of the horse and to record if the horse is meant for human consumption. As the Regulations require the passport to travel with the horse the person in possession can be anyone from a delivery driver to a vet to a stable hand. If a horse is loaned out, the loanee will require possession of the passport."

 

[magpie92]

surely if the passport is in the owners name rather than your friends there shouldnt be a problem as the horse isnt changing ownership just being loaned?

 

[Arizahn]

The owner could inform the passport agency that the horse is on loan and that ownership is not to be changed/updated, if this would make them feel better. Also they would have to sign a transfer of ownership form in order for the passport details to be updated anyhow.

But yes, the passport must stay with the horse, as whoever keeps it is required to be able to produce it within a set timeframe if asked to by official types. I think it is three hours. And of course you need it to transport, have jabs done, etc.

 

[Darremi]

I am not sure if this is allowed under the Passport Regulations, but if it is the owner could take a certified copy of the passport before transferring it to the loaner.

 

[tinap]

Also they would have to sign a transfer of ownership form in order for the passport details to be updated anyhow.

I found this not to be true :/ when i bought my mare I rang the passport issuing office (Anglo European Studbook) to ask if they needed to see the sales receipt or if I needed a transfer of ownership form. they said they didn't need either, just to return the passport to them with my name, address, phone number & email. I've no idea if they contacted the previous owner but the passport was back with me within 2 days x

 

[Dreamer515]

my TBs passport clearly startes on the first page that it is not proof of ownership (not sure if this is the same in non TB passports?) when i was given him i had to send the passport off with a form stating his old owners details and mine. it cost quite a bit to do but it came back with my name as owner all stamped and dated. my old horse i didnt bother to change ownership (quite honestly i was too young to realise i had to) but i kept the recipt i got when purchesed with the passport. i suppose though if his old owners turned around and said we stole him other than the recipt we wouldnt have a leg to stand on as they were the registered owners...luckily he was a walking vet bill so no one wanted him back bless him

 

[bexcy-bee]

Hmm...know I've seen it somewhere but can't find it.

However. they can direct the owner to this https://www.gov.uk/horse-passport
which states that the rider/keeper must have the passport with them

Oooh found this site http://www.dwf.co.uk/news/legal-updates/a-brief-guide-to-the-horse-passport-regulations-2009

Under the section "Proof of Ownership and Travelling" it states "The majority of people who have horses with passports are under the mistaken impression that possession of the passport is sufficient evidence to prove they are the owner. The Regulations state that the passport is to confirm the identity of the horse and to record if the horse is meant for human consumption. As the Regulations require the passport to travel with the horse the person in possession can be anyone from a delivery driver to a vet to a stable hand. If a horse is loaned out, the loanee will require possession of the passport."

Thanks so much elbie, have passed the details on, up to them now!

Bexcy-bee x

 

[Goldenstar]

I think the best thing an owner could do in this circumtance is to add to the loan aggrement something to the effect that the loaner is not to transfer the ownership on the passport as the horses ownership is not being transferred .
Get all parties to sign it plus a witness .

 

[Arizahn]

I found this not to be true :/ when i bought my mare I rang the passport issuing office (Anglo European Studbook) to ask if they needed to see the sales receipt or if I needed a transfer of ownership form. they said they didn't need either, just to return the passport to them with my name, address, phone number & email. I've no idea if they contacted the previous owner but the passport was back with me within 2 days x

Interesting, the Arab Horse Society and the Connemara Pony Breeders Society both require a signature, to my knowledge. I wonder if different agencies enforce things differently?

 

[Goldenstar]

Interesting, the Arab Horse Society and the Connemara Pony Breeders Society both require a signature, to my knowledge. I wonder if different agencies enforce things differently?

Yes some do require the old owner to sign some don't .

 

[Arizahn]

Yes some do require the old owner to sign some don't .

And there is always a fee attached for the transfer...

 

[sywell]

The regulation 504/2008 says that a passport is not proof of ownership and many studbooks issue a seperate form which the vendor signs when a horse is sold and gives to the new owner that you can can keep when a horse is in livery or in a yard as the keeper has to have possesion of the passport. There is also the use of the word declare that studbooks use as someone can declare they are the owner of a horse when a change of ownership takes place but that does not commit the studbook to accept that they are the owner legally. The new DEFRA business plan requires vets to report any passport that has not had the ownership changed within the 30 day requirement of the regulation.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I have just bought a young pony in Germany and it may be different there but when I paid for him I received his passport which had to travel with him and an Eigentumsurkunde which translates to Certifiacte of Ownership. It clearly states that if the horse is sold then the certificate has to be passed on to the new owner and he cannot be sold without it.

It has the breeders name, his microchip number, his ID number, DOB and brand number. On receiving it I was told never to keep it with the passport but put it away separately.

I don't know if there is anything similar over here as I have been away from horses for many years but it seems a very sensible addition to the passport system.

 

[sywell]

T^h

I have just bought a young pony in Germany and it may be different there but when I paid for him I received his passport which had to travel with him and an Eigentumsurkunde which translates to Certifiacte of Ownership. It clearly states that if the horse is sold then the certificate has to be passed on to the new owner and he cannot be sold without it.

It has the breeders name, his microchip number, his ID number, DOB and brand number. On receiving it I was told never to keep it with the passport but put it away separately.

I don't know if there is anything similar over here as I have been away from horses for many years but it seems a very sensible addition to the passport system.

That is the best advice and is the policy the British Hanoverian Society follow. Never send a German passport in the post unless you use special delivery as it can cost as much as £300 to replace. Royal Mail do not track outside of the UK so use an international carrier.