passports and livery contracts

Bosworth

Bosworth

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www.ballhillequestrian.co.uk
help!!!!!

just started writing the contracts for my new yard and have come across a tricky one!

Within the BHS contract template it states that ultimately if someone fails to pay their livery bill, I , as a livery yard owner am entitled to sell their horse.

Ok so how does that work with the passport legislation....... You cannot sell a horse without a passport, so do I as a livery owner ensure I have every horses passport kept in the safe at the yard?

Would you as a livery customer be prepared to let your yard owner keep your passport - bearing in mind passport legislation states that the passport must be kept with the horse at all times?

It's not that I want to sell customers horses - I am hoping I am truly lucky and don't get the mad and bad liveries but I have to have something wrtten into the contract that is legally enforceable as a final resort.

Any help or suggestions would be really brilliant

Thanks
 
I think you would have to take possession and them purchase a new passport, being careful to declare that (as far as you know) there is another passport in existence, there is usually a tick box for this. Of course you could just take details of the passports held for horses on the yard and write to the passport issuer of the original one in these circumstances
 
i read recently somewhere that horses couldnt be sold for non payment of livery only non paymeny of other charges ie schooling, am feverishly looking for the article now! (was in some mag or other)

i personally wouldnt let anyone else keep my passport
 
I don't know what it is called in England but yes over here we have the Innkeepers Act and this means that if someone does not pay their bills then once the bill has accumulated to the figure you believe the horse is worth......you invoked this Act and can take ownership and sell the horse, however over here people rarely have passports for their horses so it is just a case of implied ownership.

In England when I had my livery yard, the passport scheme had only just come in when I sold up so it was never an issue for me. I believe that the passports now have to remain with the horse, meaning where the horse ACTUALLY is, therefore with the livery yard owner......although I have no idea how this would infact work for those on small yards with non-horsey YO's?

I, personally would NEVER ever hand over my passport for any of my horses to a livery yard owner......regardless of what the law states, although I know that plenty on here do relinquish the passports to the YO. It just isn't something I would be comfortable doing.
 
Talking to the BHS legal team they state that the horses pasport must be kept with the horse, trading standards are perfectly within their right to turn up on a yard and demand to see the passport at any time. So in theory Yard Owners are legally obliged to keep the passport.

I have a safe at my house at the yard so all passports would be kept in there. I also want every livery to prove they have at least 3rd party insurance for their horses so would need to see insurance /BHS gold membership. Would you be prepared to do that?

It just seems a really unclear area of the contract and yet I have to have it clear before i write the contract.
 
Well just come off phone to Defra and trading standards - and guess what - Defra haven't got a clue...... the chap I spoke to has just told me that passports are only there to prevent the horses going into the human food chain, they are not proof of ownership. When I said - well that's odd because mine states who is the owner, it has to be transferred when I sell him and shows his breeding and DNA and is his ownership doc he stated it is not. The receipt is his ownership doc.

Trading standards stated that the passport must be kept with the horse and there is a fine of up to £5000 for each horse without a passport. And it is not relevant whether the horse is on DIY or full.

I have asked how they enforce it - and it is yard visits as well as inspecting transport and competitions
 
Watcher you would be breaking the law if you applied for a second passport knowing the horse already had one.

This is yet another legal minefield that someone somewhere didnt think of when passports came in! Passports dont prove ownership though so even a photocopy of the original wouldnt safeguard either an absent owner or the livery yard owner or the horse!
 
That advice doesnt seem right - I've never heard of ramdom inspections at yards by trading standards?

There is no way I would leave my passport with my YO, it is my property and needs to be with the horse if it is having veterinary treatment or when I am travelling. I would provide a copy but not the original document.

It is such a big issue I would move yards if the YO insisted
 
Apparantly it should be kept with the yard owner if your horse is there, so that emergency vet treatment can be administered if you are not there, no vet treatment should be administered without the passport. When you take your horse to the vet, or take it travelling then of course the passport needs to be taken from the yard. No one disputes that. The random inspections are not the norm, currently they are looking at how to police and this is one line they are looking at.

If the licensing of livery yards comes in which is likely then it will be a feature of the licence
 
If a horse is at a livery yard (full, part or livery) then the yard should have the passport on the premises. The passport should be taken with the horse when attending a competition (this does not include pleasure rides). If you ride your horse to a competition you do not need to have the passport with you except if the competition requires sight of the passport. We do however need a few legal cases to test the law.
 
Like Sparklet, I wouldn't leave my passport with the YO. And no vet will refuse to treat the animal if the passport is absent - it it needs anotating it can be done at a later date.
 
My passport is kept in my lorry so it always at the yard. I have never yet had a vet ask to see my passport to administer any sort of treatment except for annual vaccinations and only then to record the fact that they have had one, so I am not too worried about vet visits emergency or otherwise.

It would be interesting to see how they carry out random inspections on horses kept in a field where there are no facilities nor persons present.
 
I wouldn't leave my precious passports with anyone else at all.

Just to butt in though but part of it - if you have signed Section B (I think) to state the horse is not for human consumption, then there is no reason to have to leave it at yard to have it signed, there is no need for any record (other than vacc's) to be taken except for your benefit, it doesn't affect what drugs it can have so why bother having it signed by vet if it has treatment, a complete waste of time IMO. Have to admit, as all of mine are signed up, I don't bother, just make a note in my diary if anything needs anything and why. Sorry, that was a bit rambly, just heard friend's bought a filly at Doncaster and it's on its way here so have to go!
 
Because if your passport is not with your horse then potentially you could be in for a £5000 fine from Trading standards apparantly. An at the moment tradins standards are saying that the yard owner should have th epassport. But as a yard owner I am not prepared to be fined £5000 for each horse without a passport so yard onwers either need the passport or need to get their livery owners to sign a statement saying the they - the owners - accept all responsibility for the fine
 
Yes I did have minumum requirements for vaccinations and insurance....and all liveries had to show proof of this to me before the horses arrived.
 
TS visited our yard some time ago on a casual basis to chat about passports etc. She basically said that if it became the case that some owners wouldnt leave passports at the yard she would need to organise a visit where all owners could be present to show the passports.

Now I dont know if thats a compromise all TS are going to make or if its just her trying to be helpful.
 
It's all such a crock of poo though. Unless things have changed in the UK, vets don't complete the passport for ALL medication or vaccinations
crazy.gif
.

A non-horsey YO wouldn't have a clue if the horse was ill or not (if indeed they ever check the horses) so they are unlikely to call a vet and need the passport.

It's such a whole load of bull in my opinion - just another wonderful idea of taxation!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Watcher you would be breaking the law if you applied for a second passport knowing the horse already had one.

This is yet another legal minefield that someone somewhere didnt think of when passports came in! Passports dont prove ownership though so even a photocopy of the original wouldnt safeguard either an absent owner or the livery yard owner or the horse!

[/ QUOTE ]

i know what the law says, but there has to be a mechanism for obtaining a duplicate if the first is lost/mislaid or otherwise not available..as long as you don't declare that there is NOT a previous passport you should be able to get round it
 
Really passports should be the same legally as a car registration. Then everyone would legally be obliged to have one, there would be a central database so they could be checked up on, yard owners would not be required to have it, just a copy of the identification number. THe trouble is they try to do too many jobs - and do them badly. I think all vet treatment should be detailed so that any poor unsuspecting purchaser can see the full health history.
 
Well every horse is legally obliged to have a passport.

I do agree with you that every piece of history should be put in the passport.
 
There is no way on earth I would leave my horses passport with anyone!

As for this £5000 fine, sounds a load of rubbish, I know there is a fine if the horse doesnt have a passport at ALL, but you dont get a £5000 fine if the passport isnt with the horse 100% of the time. Its most important when travelling or when at shows.

so should you have it in your pocket on a hack?

What a joke.

My horses passport is my property and I woudlnt go to any yard that demanded I handed it over.
 
Do you have a link to this ruling Bosworth. I cant find anything to support the need to produce a passport on demand unless travelling, selling or moving yards. You may be worrying unnecessarily.
 
no actually trading standards have said that they can fine if the passport is not available with the horse - and that means it is as important at home as it is travelling and at shows. You would not be expected to carry it with you riding but could be asked to produce it at the yard. And the yards can be checked at any time by trading standards.

On a point - St Bernard - your horse is your property and yet he is left on a yard, why not leave the passport with him, provided that the yard is professional and the passport can be left in a locked safe?
 
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