Pax?

[LACS]

I think it's time to call a truce. In the heat of debate nasty things can be said and regretted later on. Let's wipe the slate clean and start again. Here goes...

How was the Waterloo Cup this year?

 

[CARREG]

Silly man..its to awkward to run the cup in front of the public, hasnt stopped legal hare coursing tho, almost exactly the same as before the ban except less people and they gotta shoot at the hare dont matter if they miss tho...lol cos the dogs are there as back up...lol...........Carreg

 

[LACS]

Silly me! I thought it didn't go ahead this year! How did it go? Win any bets? Did they still manage to move enough hares up there from Norfolk to provide enough sport? Let me know!

 

[Nigel]

Hi Lacs,

8,000 hares shot on 10 coursing estates thanks to the ban, why are you gloating?


Cheers

Nigel

 

[CARREG]

I dont go hare coursing, Im not in favour of organised coursing where betting takes place, I dont like betting on horse racing either, unfortunatley thousands of hares have been shot on estates up and down the country, thankfully there are estates where hare coursing still goes on, legally, Im glad we have these places or the hare could have become an endangered species virtually overnight. As with the rest of the hunting act very little thought was put into what would happen to the quarry species when hunting/coursing was banned, luckily for the animals concerned the Govt made such a pigs ear of the legislation we are still able to hunt and conserve animals in England and Wales...........Carreg

 

[Doreys_Mum]

I want to go coursing one day... perhaps I can make next years waterloo cup?

 

[LACS]

"8,000 hares shot on 10 coursing estates thanks to the ban, why are you gloating?"

The 24 registered hare coursing clubs killed about 250 hares a year in total before the ban. So I'm wondering why the owners of just 10 estates since the ban have felt it necessary to shoot 32 times the TOTAL number of hares killed annually before the ban. It seems rather excessive to me and just a little spiteful.

 

[Sooty]

So, to preserve hares, they have to be shot? Hmmm...

 

[CARREG]

Spite has nothing to do with it, its not the coursers who are shooting the hares its the land owners and farmers, simple fact is they dont want gangs of pikeys illegally coursing and thieving whatever else they can lay their hands on...."As with the rest of the hunting act very little thought was put into what would happen to the quarry species when hunting/coursing was banned..." ..............Carreg

 

[LACS]

Two points:

1. You say: "thankfully there are estates where hare coursing still goes on, legally"

How does this go on legally? DEFRA says that the Hunting Act "completely bans hare coursing".

2. The ban has been in place for 18 months. Had it not been there, on a pro-rata basis that legal or "official" coursing killed 250 hares a year, since February 2005 these clubs would have killed 400-odd hares. Let's be generous and say 500 hares.

Your friend here says that the ban forced 10 estates to shoot 8000 hares. You suggest that this was to prevent illegal coursing. But if the ban hadn't happened only 500 of those hares would have been killed by ALL coursing clubs. Even assuming that all 500 hares were killed by these 10 (out of 24) clubs, that still leaves 7500 hares bouncing around on these estates for the illegal coursers. Could you talk me through your reasoning because I don't understand it?

 

[CARREG]

1. re-read my 1st post

2. "...Could you talk me through your reasoning because I don't understand it?...."
...and you never will ............Carreg

 

[Nigel]

Hi Lacs,

“So I'm wondering why the owners of just 10 estates since the ban have felt it necessary to shoot 32 times the TOTAL number of hares killed annually before the ban”

Pest control

Now why the Gloating?

Cheers

Nigel

 

[LACS]

1. The Waterloo cup is definitely banned. The Act bans a "hare coursing event" which it defines as "a competition in which dogs are, by the use of live hares, assessed as to skill in hunting hares".

You can flush to guns, if the conditions are met. The dogs can't course the hares though.

Hare coursing is banned.

2. Why don't you enlighten me? On these 10 estates, at the very most, 400-500 hares (and probably more like 150) would have been killed "legally" had the ban not taken place. Why kill an extra 7500 hares? They would have been there for illegal coursers anyway.

 

[LACS]

"Pest control"

From Burns:

"There is little or no need to control overall hare numbers and, indeed, they are a Biodiversity Action Plan species."

Burns also concluded:

"Because hare numbers tend to be maintained at high levels in areas where hunting/coursing occurs, the impact of a ban might well be that, in the absence of other changes, the population would decline in those areas. This would partly result from a loss of suitable habitat but also, in a few areas, from the shooting of hares to deter poaching and illegal coursing. However, in comparison with the impact of organised shooting on hare numbers, a ban on hare hunting and coursing would have a negligible effect."

What he quite reasonably didn't predict was that coursers would shoot at least 32 times the number of hares they would have killed without the ban - not for reasons of pest control but out of spite. No I'm not gloating. I think it's sick.

 

[CARREG]

"...You can flush to guns, if the conditions are met. The dogs can't course the hares though....."

O.k.........lol, them godamn loop holes....lol...........Carreg

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"...You can flush to guns, if the conditions are met. The dogs can't course the hares though....."

What about flushing not to guns?

 

[LACS]

Not a loophole at all. Look at the Tony Wright case.

Why not answer my question about the killing of 7500 hares for no apparent reason?

 

[CARREG]

Ive already answered as to why they were killed, to stop the pikeys, if the coursing clubs were stiil using the land it would be looked after by them and the pikeys would be less of a problem....."As with the rest of the hunting act very little thought was put into what would happen to the quarry species when hunting/coursing was banned, luckily for the animals concerned the Govt made such a pigs ear of the legislation we are still able to hunt and conserve animals in England and Wales"...........Carreg

 

[Hercules]

''Not a loophole at all. Look at the Tony Wright case.''

So why hasn't A-A been prosecuted for flushing a non-exempt species?

Stop evading the question.

 

[LACS]

1. It isn't as if the land has been abandoned. It's still being managed by farmers etc. There aren't now great tracts of unpopulated wilderness for "pikeys" to run amok on.

2. Even despite this you say coursing is still going on, so your excuse that coursing clubs can't look after the land doesn't make sense.

3. If some type of coursing is legal - as you claim - why the need for the slaughter of so many hares: at least 3200% up on the number of hares that would have been killed by coursing clubs had there been no ban?

 

[LACS]

"So why hasn't A-A been prosecuted for flushing a non-exempt species?"

I answered this before. He hasn't been prosecuted because he wasn't hunting.

 

[Hercules]

But the act states that flushing is an exempt form of hunting, providing that certain conditions are met.

A-A's activities meet none of the set criteria. Shouldn't he therefore be prosecuted?

 

[Nigel]

Hi Lacs,

Using your evidence your chums on the Labour backbenches pushed through a ban to stop sport hunting with dogs, and argued only for pest control, why are you sickened what did you expect? In fact you would have known what Graham Sirl and the rest of the gang said before the ban was introduced.

“Failure to bring in such protection will inevitably lead to an increase in activities such as fox, deer and hare drives. This will be nothing short of unmanaged, indiscriminate slaughter.”


What an amazing assumption, courses shot the hares out of spite, in my opinion they are the last lot that would do this in case the act is repealed. It`s more probable the estates in question have a commercial shooting interests.

Burns Inquiry,

65 In the event of a ban on hunting and coursing hares, it seems likely that a few more would be shot than at present.

200,000 – 300,000 are believed to be shot every year, compared to this number 8,000 is a few.

I do not believe for one second you are sickened, you knew this would happen, you stuck your head in the sand and ignored it.

Cheers

Nigel

 

[LACS]

and Carreg went silent, and I'm not surprised.

 

[CARREG]

"...and Carreg went silent, and I'm not surprised...."

What are you on about??...........Carreg

 

[LACS]

I'm on about this:

"1. It isn't as if the land has been abandoned. It's still being managed by farmers etc. There aren't now great tracts of unpopulated wilderness for "pikeys" to run amok on.

2. Even despite this you say coursing is still going on, so your excuse that coursing clubs can't look after the land doesn't make sense.

3. If some type of coursing is legal - as you claim - why the need for the slaughter of so many hares: at least 3200% up on the number of hares that would have been killed by coursing clubs had there been no ban?"

 

[CARREG]

1. The land is no longer looked after by the clubs involved, you obviously know nothing about the lay-out of good coursing ground hence your ignorant posts

2. Hare coursing events are still being held around the country, I never mentioned coursing clubs

3. You've been told why they were killed more than once

Ive told you I have no interest in hare coursing, if you feel the need to constantly bombard someone with figures on numbers of hares killed Im not really your man, unlike you antis I'd rather have a fair bit of knowledge if Im going to debate something...........Carreg

 

[Clodagh]

Its not exactly rocket science, and Carreg has stated the answer already.
Landowners who supported coursing were prepared to put up with some illegal efforts, and the trauma they involve, in order to sustain a healthy hare population for the legal SPORTING clubs.
The clubs themselves helped to patrol the land on key days to deter illegal coursers.
With no legal coursing to enjoy there was no point to the landowners of putting up with the massive amounts of damage inflicted on crops by a large hare population. (I will take photos of our spring beans sometime). There was no point on having the pikeys killing hares and leverets indiscriminately, as well as nicking anything not chained down in the meantime. The best way to stop this was/is to cull the entire population, or as many as possible. A lot of people pay to kill hares with a gun, I'm sure you would agree with them that it is much more 'fun' than hunting, with its ups and downs.
LACS, you do nothing more than to show your total disregard and disrespect for the countryside with your continued badgering of why it happened.

 

[CARREG]

Thank you Clodagh, you put it much better than I could have...........Carreg

 

[Nigel]

Hi Carrag,

Just sent you a pm.

Cheers

Nigel