Paying below Nat min wage and long hours

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lostshepherd

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Been discussing this on another forum, with a lot of useful advice, but wanted a wider viewing as wonder how common this practice still is.

scenario - full time. Event groom, typical day this week 7am start finished at 8pm then out again between 9pm and 10 pm to do night check. No break for lunch work right through every day.
Average hours a week anything from a safe 54 hrs to 60+
doing 5 Night checks.
Its a six day week, one day off. notice given usually only a day or two in advance.
accommodation provided (maximum £33.74 a week HMRC )
No training, no horse, no lessons,
No contract, not asked for P45, no stamp being paid to my knowledge. Query employers liability ins.
Pay is £100 a week cash in hand

:mad:
 
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That is awful! I'd be having some serious words with your employer and handing in your notice! How old are you if you dont mind me asking?
 
I'm pretty sure you are legally entitled to a break after 6 hours. Go find someone who will appreciate you. People struggle to find someone reliable and willing to work long hours with horses, you'll be snapped up and paid more.
 
that's disgusting, why are you still there? Despite everything being illegal, if she is actually paying you cash in hand you're not paying NI contributions, which, may not feel important now but you have to have paid them for 35 years to get your pension, so not only are you being a slave, you won't get a pension in your old age.
 
Yep that's illegal. It's disgusting and takes advantage of peoples love for horses. Personally I would never take on a job like that and be treated as a slave. I don't know why people agree to take a job like that, I'm all for working hard but I would expect correct and legal renumeration and breaks. I think you're by law allowed a 5 min break for every 2 hrs worked or something like that! May even be 15 mins.
I think its disgusting how employers think they can treat staff in the equine industry.
 
I recently became aware of a similar case where the member of staff was working as the OP described but for even less money. I expressed surprise that in this day and age anyone would be prepared to work in those conditions even if they felt getting experience in a busy yard would given them useful skills. The person got a new job and is now taking home in hand 10 times what they were before, NI etc is paid and the working hours are normal with regular days off. The industry really needs to get its act together to prevent this sort of exploitation IMO.
 
Unfortunately this is the norm in many "groom" jobs these days. My OH (not mentioning names or places) worked for someone, had 16 horses stabled (more arrived not long before we left) and in work, only he was employed to do everything. Feed AM, muck out, ride, muck out PM and feed PM not including show days where all bathing, plaiting and tack cleaning was to be done on top of regular jobs. Luckily he had me as a helper (I wasn't employed as I worked full time in an office) but helped him out by mucking out a row at 5am before I went to work he had no days off and no set holidays. He came out with £150 in cash a week. Slave labour if you ask me and his boss coudlnt see anything wrong with it. He was ill a lot and completely exhausted from it but we loved the horses and he managed a year there before seeing the light. If you aren't happy move on, there are horse jobs out there that are better paid and more professionally run. Have a look on Career Grooms or Yard and Groom, might be some better positions on there, good luck :)
 
If are injured at work, you're not insured.

Heaven forbid, you have a serious accident and find yourself with no job, no accommodation and no sick pay.
 
I used to be on 100 a week with more hours than this... Accommodation and basic food provided but I was stuck in a rut, couldn't afford to leave.. But now at a much better place..
 
This person is stupid then


Leave and get a legal job with proper benifits.

Even if they love this job they will still loose out. Something could go wron have an accident.
They need money to live.
 
Alot of people obviously don't understand this is the norm amongst grooms, especially up north. Generally grooms will end up tied down before they realise what has happened. I don't think it's a case of calling anyone 'stupid' ...
 
teamsarazara said:
Alot of people obviously don't understand this is the norm amongst grooms, especially up north. Generally grooms will end up tied down before they realise what has happened. I don't think it's a case of calling anyone 'stupid' ...
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Well it's not the norm around me. My staff all live out, work 9-5 - 5 days a week and are all paid just above NMW. They get at LEAST 1 lesson a day, usually 2 (riding my horses so it's in my interests they do it well) except on Monday & Friday when the senior rider isn't here. They are all also involved in helping to back horses - learning 'on the job' - again under the supervision of the senior rider or myself. AND I'm just doing lunch for them - hot bacon & sausage sanwiches!

And no - I have no vacancies I'm afraid!:D (I wonder why that is!:rolleyes:)
 
The value of accomodation does need to be taken into account, including bills, nothing is cheap after all. That said, your employer should be paying your NI contributions, and should be insured, plus I would expect a higher wage than that. There are plenty of decent jobs out there, there are just unfortunatly a lot of rubbish employers too. Personally I wouldn't work those kind of hours, and there is a choice.
 
Its not the norm around here either!

I wonder why whenever I do have a vacancy none of these underpaid overworked people apply - I only seem to get applicants who are already earning about £2000 per month plus horse, dog, accommodation,use of lorry etc etc!!

Strange world.
 
I'm job hunting atm and noticed a few of these types of jobs.
One saying they want a volunteer groom, accommodation and food is supplied plus livery for 1 horse and lessons but no wage. How are you supposed to live like that? How do you pay the vet/farrier etc? Yet I suspect someone will do it.
 
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement that this is not acceptable although some still saying that it's the norm in thier area?
Not me BTW.
this person is 21, with two years event experience under her belt, but had only one yard where she was looked after,by them insisting on breaks and food stops. Pay was the same, and no particular training. Horse allowed during the summer,but left as yard manager took a dislike to her! And employers felt she was too isolated on thier yard as on own in evenings and does not drive.

She is suffering health wise, but says yard and horses great, bosses are nice, and she does not care about the money as doing it for the love!!!!!:mad:

I've been in touch with various people and organisations and am prepared to act , although this will most likely cost her her job.

Sadly her experiences to date, have not given her a taste of what good employers and reasonable working conditions should be expected. She honestly does not believe that she could find better places to work.:(

She is not lazy(not the fastest worker) but steady, conscientious, reliable, competent, trustworthy, etc. knows her job, and is good with the horses.

Ive ranted so much, that she won't answer the phone to me for fear of yet more nagging!

I've been on every website, spoken to helpful people who will help her,if only she will speak to them, but she wont.

Hate the situation, and not prepared to stand by as really concerned over lack of proof of legal employment, accident liability etc.
 
sport horse said:
Its not the norm around here either!

I wonder why whenever I do have a vacancy none of these underpaid overworked people apply - I only seem to get applicants who are already earning about £2000 per month plus horse, dog, accommodation,use of lorry etc etc!!

Strange world.
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Strange world indeed - the reason you probably don't get any of these underpaid workers is because the poor devils are stuck at work up to their armpits in mucking out and unable to get time off for an interview. People get stuck in ruts sometimes.

But OP, you seriously need to get something sorted and quick
 
I know its illegal but people seem to think that if it is to do with horse you can get away with it.
Racing is far better pay. I get £10 for every horse I ride out, and my new job pays £7.50 an hour. People will take the pee, but don't let them, report them!
 
If she is your friend you need to decide whether its worth losing a friend over this.. Cause IMO I would do all I could to help a friend but would never get them in trouble..
 
https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates
They get round it by saying you are training, then deduct livery,and if you live in accomadation.
All I can say is when you go for a job ask for a written job discription and a contract that states hours and holidays.
If you think horses are bad in the fashion industry students work on placement for deseigners for nothing and have to pay their expenses.
I have thought about taking someone on as I am already employing a freelance groom but I have mainily brood mares and ponies so it wouldnot broaden anyones experience much. May try in the summer holidays to see if I can get a horsey au pair. Last summer I was trying to find someone to back a pony for me hourly rate plus milage and had no takers. I would have paid more for ten hour work than some earn in a week.
 
This is the kind of job I used to do, similar wage, accommodation, hours etc .... It took me a long time to realise that I was being taken advantage of as unfortunately this kind of scenario is all too common in the horse industry ....
 
lostshepherd said:
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement that this is not acceptable although some still saying that it's the norm in thier area?
Not me BTW.
this person is 21, with two years event experience under her belt, but had only one yard where she was looked after,by them insisting on breaks and food stops. Pay was the same, and no particular training. Horse allowed during the summer,but left as yard manager took a dislike to her! And employers felt she was too isolated on thier yard as on own in evenings and does not drive.

She is suffering health wise, but says yard and horses great, bosses are nice, and she does not care about the money as doing it for the love!!!!!:mad:

I've been in touch with various people and organisations and am prepared to act , although this will most likely cost her her job.

Sadly her experiences to date, have not given her a taste of what good employers and reasonable working conditions should be expected. She honestly does not believe that she could find better places to work.:(

She is not lazy(not the fastest worker) but steady, conscientious, reliable, competent, trustworthy, etc. knows her job, and is good with the horses.

Ive ranted so much, that she won't answer the phone to me for fear of yet more nagging!

I've been on every website, spoken to helpful people who will help her,if only she will speak to them, but she wont.

Hate the situation, and not prepared to stand by as really concerned over lack of proof of legal employment, accident liability etc.
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree with you that it's wrong, slave labour and all that jazz; you can't help people that won't be helped :o
So, think VERY carefully before you do anything, your friends needs to decide for herself. If I were you, I would give her the tools and leave her to make her own decision, ready to support her if she chooses to leave/report them.
You don't want to be forcing her to leave a job she wants to be doing.
 
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