Payment of livery

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mrbee

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Hi, although I read these forums all of the time I have never posted anything before but I think you may be able to help me! I am a YO with 12 DIY liveries. I like to think I am easy going and will help out whenever I can however some of my liveries seem to be taking advantage. Livery is due to be paid on the 1st of each month, as detailed in our contract, but month after month I have to wait longer and longer for the payments. If people speak to me I am very understanding and tell them to pay as soon as they can however it is now 11 days into the month and I have 3 unpaid liveries (one of which is a further 2 months behind) and none of them have even spoken to me to apologise. It wouldn't be so bad but they are all expecting a new menage, lighting etc this year! How long do you get to make your payments and what are the consequences on your yards for being late or non-payment?
Just interested to know who else is in this situation. Thanks
 
mrbee said:
Hi, although I read these forums all of the time I have never posted anything before but I think you may be able to help me! I am a YO with 12 DIY liveries. I like to think I am easy going and will help out whenever I can however some of my liveries seem to be taking advantage. Livery is due to be paid on the 1st of each month, as detailed in our contract, but month after month I have to wait longer and longer for the payments. If people speak to me I am very understanding and tell them to pay as soon as they can however it is now 11 days into the month and I have 3 unpaid liveries (one of which is a further 2 months behind) and none of them have even spoken to me to apologise. It wouldn't be so bad but they are all expecting a new menage, lighting etc this year! How long do you get to make your payments and what are the consequences on your yards for being late or non-payment?
Just interested to know who else is in this situation. Thanks
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Make them set up a standard order! My YO only excepts this now
 
Right to them, give them so many days to pay it interest will be added.
If still no payment give them notice to leave.
You are a business and need the money to provide the service
 
I would suggest you check whatever livery contract you have - if none, then get one......any contract I have signed has a clause something like "livery is due for payment within 7 days of receipt of the bill. Interest of 1% will be added, on a cumulative basis for every day overdue. Non-payment of bills is a valid reason for us to take further action against you to recover any debt. Should you, however, have difficulties please SPEAK to us at the earliest opportunity"
If you don't have contracts then I suggest you draft one and get everyone to sign, this will be an opportunity to stress that EVERYONE needs to be up to date NOW.
You are not a charity - people need to realise that - of course if you have a waiting list for people to come into the yard then this will help.
Good luck - people that don't pay really get my goat, they wouldn;t dream of refuelling their car then telling Esso they can wait 2 months, so why should you?
 
Yeah I second the above comment. When I signed the contract I was given bank details of the acount and part of the contract was that I had to set up a standing order for the money to go out on the first of every month. This way it gives you peace and saves you having to run after the money and also they will get a charge I think if the money goes out and it's not in the account. If they don't get charged then I'm sure something inconvinient happens lol:)
 
I agree, they are using you as a credit source, you can't afford it, but if you get them on direct debit you will be in a stronger position. It is typical to use these pulled collections to make recurring payments. Unlike standing orders, which require the amounts to be fixed, direct debits can be used for varying amounts, and are more similar to direct deposits, which are initiated by the payer. With direct debits, the payee can simply indicate a different amount each time.
Ask your bank for advice.
The good payers are subsiding the others, it can't be sustainable.
Also you should have a fixed limit on credit, say three months, then you can sell the horse for whatever you can get, and reclaim your expenses, all your expenses. The contract you need with your liveries can be updated by yourself, and they must sign it.
 
I do encourage new liveries to set up SO's but have not made this a rule as I try to accomodate people's wishes - I think this needs to change! Although one of those in question cancelled their SO when things got tight. I have been on the verge of giving notice for late payment before but there is always an excuse, an apology and finally a payment. I know I need to toughen up!
 
I think you need to give the late payees a written warning and state categorically they have 7 days to settle their bill or they are on notice to leave.
Those who sometimes try it on will then see the line in the sand and have a choice, pay on time or on their bikes. I know it sounds hard but think on it this way, they are running up bills with you, it will only get worse not better if you don't tackle it. You don;t want to get a name for being a soft touch!
 
Thanks for your replies. I will be updating our contracts to give a time limit on payments and will also think about the interest aspect (thanks jnb!), then I will look forward to a future with no more hasseling for payments!!! I can dream!
 
Miss L Toe said:
I agree, they are using you as a credit source, you can't afford it, but if you get them on direct debit you will be in a stronger position. It is typical to use these pulled collections to make recurring payments. Unlike standing orders, which require the amounts to be fixed, direct debits can be used for varying amounts, and are more similar to direct deposits, which are initiated by the payer. With direct debits, the payee can simply indicate a different amount each time.
Ask your bank for advice.
The good payers are subsiding the others, it can't be sustainable.
Also you should have a fixed limit on credit, say three months, then you can sell the horse for whatever you can get, and reclaim your expenses, all your expenses. The contract you need with your liveries can be updated by yourself, and they must sign it.
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Ummm used to work for major bank: direct debits can only be set up by corporate companies/businesses and not small individual sole traders in the UK, the direct debit scheme is not aimed at that market. Standing orders are what would be appropriate here. They should be for monthly rent, in advance with any arrears being settled by cash or cheque within 7 days of invoice being given to the livery at the end of the month. Interest to be charged if not settled within 14 days at x% per day or month. State in the livery contract that non payment of standing order whether returned for lack of funds or cancellation of the so mandate will be treated as breach of contract. Also state that any fees charged to you by your bank for a returned payment will be charged to them, with interest (you get a small charge for them too!)

Recommend also including a 'lien' clause in the livery agreement which states that if rent is unpaid for x months you have the right to retain possession of the horse and to sell it to recoup losses. Might concentrate their minds and altho you might still need a court order to do it , with the clause in there it would be much more straightforward to get that order.
 
Write to the 3 individuals detailing their accounts and a date for settlement.
Have a meeting at the yard and ask for s.o to be set up for basic livery payment 1 month in advance with extras signed for in a ledger and paid for in full on the last day of the month.
Youre only being used because youre allowing them to use you.:o
 
Mine has to be paid for at the end of each month (paid in advance)
My YO is very understanding if you are having issues but if you don't contact her then she will call you when you are a day or two over to remind you.
 
on my livery bill it says payment by thursday , occasionally some are a day or so late but in terms it says payment withing 3 days
this is the line in my contract

PHP: 
Invoicing performed every 4 weeks, and must be paid within 3 days – no exceptions.

I would write that on their livery bill say due to some payments coming in later or some payments not being paid on time . As from next month payment must be received within 3 days.

After all if they havent paid for the stable their horse should not be occupying it.

They would not it if their wages were late would they

OMG one is two months behind no excuse I would write a letter and say due to livery not being paid please settle this outstanding bill by such and such or they are to remove the horse from the yard and you reserve the right to take matters further

eg small claims court

we did this with 3 and they paid up

They are totaly taking the Pi$$ Dont put up with it any more . My hubby writes very formal letters just done one for a neighbour boundary dispute, i can pm u one of the termination notices if it will help
 
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I once spoke to a fellow livery yard owner about the same problem and he had an interesting solution, but I do NOT recommend it. He tethered the horse outside the yard to a fence with a bucket of water and a haynet, and when the liveries arrived they were obviously horrified and challenged hime and he told them it was because of the late payment. Once this system was established everyone on the yard knew that the bill had not been paid, if a horse was found tethered to the fence! Extreme but effective for him, I would not be so brave in case of an accident/liability. Although if you have a notice board perhaps a public notice of overdue liveries may be enough to shame them into paying.
 
here is the first letter we wrote to a non payer


27th July 2007


Dear Karen



We regret to Inform you that we will be unable to offer livery services to ( horses name) as from 25th August 2007.

We thank you for your past patronage and wish both you and ( horses name) every success in the future.

Please find enclosed livery bill with details of money owing to us.



Yours sincerely





when we heard nothing this was second letter


19th August 2007


Dear Miss xxxxx


RE:-Livery Fees with (name of yard)



I write further to the above matter.


Your livery arrangement was due to terminate on the 24th August 2007; however your livery fee has been paid only up to 17th August. This leaves one week’s livery fee outstanding.

I attached an invoice for the outstanding amount.

I would be grateful for your confirmation that you will satisfy this fee within the next 7 days failing which, I reserve my right to seek to enforce this invoice.



Yours Sincerely







Still no reply so a third letter did the trick


Dear Miss XXXX


I wrote to you on the 19th August 2007 requesting settlement of your outstanding livery payment within seven days. To-date I have not received your reply.
Kindly make payment of the £ 74.00 you owe me no later than 3rd Sept 2007. If I do not receive this amount by the latter date I will issue a county Court Claim against you.

Yours Sincerely



P S letter and copy hand delivered and posted on 30th August 2007
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If you want to use any of these and doctor them to suit thats fine if it will help. :)
 
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we have threatened if no payment made then their horse will be tied to the outside gate lock and their equipment left out as well. Needless to say they paid.
 
ours is payment expected within 7 days of receipt of invoice, and interest is added on for each day after that. i'm new to my yard and haven't yet received my contract so i'm not sure on the details of what happens re: no payment!
 
I too run a small livery yard and have mostly been lucky up to now[touching wood] however i did have one person who consistantly paid a week to10 days late which they always had a story for, finally i suggested that perhaps she would like to pay a week early every month she was horrified i said why is that so different to you paying late every month then the penny dropped now mostly i get paid on time.:)
 
We had this problem with one livery running up a bill of almost £800 when her livery for her horses was just £45 a week.
After the embarrassment and time spent chasing her we asked everyone to pay directly into the account, and this works well.
The same livery bounced three cheques on me (she denies it to this day) and I had to pay the bank for the cost of them writing to me to tell me.
I wish livery clients would one day sit down and work out how much they actually get for their money, adding in the mortgage the owner is usually paying, the cost of buying and building stables/arena/storage/toilet facility etc, even the car park they use. Never mind the electricity and water supplied.
When we left our last yard one of our liveries (DIY) came shouting at us for taking the wheelbarrows in the removal lorry, he really didn't consider them ours which says a lot.
I'm afraid as the years have passed we have got more and more cynical, and now insist on being paid .
 
I think you might have to make it a rule that everyone pays by standing order so you can get your money. I am presuming that all your clients have a bank account so this should not be a problem and it is actually much easier to pay by standing order as then they don't need to even think about it.

If you offer services sell hay or bedding then refuse to provide anything until you have been paid.

Our YO put up a notice saying if people did not pay promptly she would have to put the prices up for everyone to pay the interest on her overdraft caused by people not paying on time. That seemed to work. I guess the next step might have been to put up a list of late payers and the other liveries would have put pressure on them to pay to avoid the prices going up.
 
Just speak to them! ;)

They sound like a fairly typical bunch of liveries. The vast majority pay straight away, two or three pay a bit late, and there is always one who is a pain in the bum!

Just get the few late ones together for an informal chat over a cup of tea and explain the problem. I find this works much better than writing letters or getting shirty, partly because directness and politeness always works well, but mostly because if you have the chat with them all in one go, they are a little bit ashamed of themselves. They have been identified as bad payers in front of each other and tend to pull their socks up.

Your really bad payer might need a chat on her own! As harsh as it seems, you may have to give her notice. She will either pay you quickly or leave. Even if she leaves owing you £800, that's better than her owing you 2k in a few months time! Some liveries just have to go regardless of how nice they are. You have a business to run.
 
You sound like a lovely YO but it sounds like the liveries you mention are taking you very much for granted! I would recommend updating contracts with "prompt payment required- any payments taken later than 6th such and such interest will be added to bill" I was at a yard with some non- payers and as a fellow livery I got so angry that they were allowed to not pay but the rest of us did! When a different yard manger took over she gave those liveries their notice. As sometimes your better off being less 2-3liveries but having a yard full of paying customers. It's your business, having horses is expensive if these liveries can't afford it they certainly shouldn't be making you pay their way .
 
Its also really mean on the YO as they are kind of hit twice if they are running the yard as a proper business. Business rates are charged on the facilities there, not if they are used or not, and number of stables is a key factor in calculating the charge. So if the stable is full with someone who isnt paying, they still have to pay the business rate on that stable, it isnt just doing without the rent for general purposes, that bill has to be paid come what may.
 
can you not have payments by standing order or direct debit?? My yard does this and it's soooo easy,the money just comes out on the 1st of each month so I don't have to worry about writing out cheques or getting cash out. I'd give then a month's notice that payment will be in future by the above method, anyone who is more than a month behind - unless for exceptional circumstances would be asked to leave. It's not fair on you or the liveries who do pay on time.
 
On our yard all livery is set up by standing order a month in advance, and all extras charged at the end of the month, with seven days to pay. If it doesn’t go in I do chase it straight away and would definitely give someone notice if they were a month behind. Personally I would rather have an empty box than someone racking up bills I was worried may not get paid. We also take a £200 deposit off all new liveries, which can be used for unpaid bills or breakages when someone leaves, 90% will get it back in full but if people can’t/don’t want to pay the deposit we don’t take them, simple as that. I’m not a Hitler in other ways but strongly believe if you do something you should get paid prompty for it (we all have bills to pay!), and those who generally try to get away with things or live beyond their means will always pay those first who shout loudest. We now have a great bunch who almost all pay the day the invoice is issued. A few years back I had a livery who owed a bit go out for a hack and never come back (having cleared her stuff out the evening before)– it was a real headache sorting that out so I'm definitely once bitten twice shy!
 
All of our liverys (apart from one thats been there donkeys years) pay by Standing Order monthly in advance. YO gets a text from his bank when the money goes into his account, that way he is sure that everyone has paid on time.

There was one livery that racked up a bill and when challenged about it, did a flit. YO was happy she left while she owed such a small amount rather than staying and eating all his profits.

It doesn't really matter how you get your money, as long as you get it. I know of a livery yard that has a contract that reads 'If you are over 7 days late in payment, we reserve the right to sell your horse and belongings at auction to recover the debt.'
 
Thank you for all of your comments - some very good ideas although i may give tying the horse to the gate a miss for now!!. One has now promised to pay on Weds so we will see - in the meantime it's time for me to toughen up and not be the easy touch some of my liveries obviously think I am
 
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