Pelham. To waterford or not

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pip_dog

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Hi. As title suggests really. I have a mare who is mad on occasions. Lovely on others. I'd really like to try her in a pelham. Her main vice is pulling like a steam train and sometimes being unstoppable. I mean to a halt. She just fights your request. Pokes her nose in the air. And is a general madam. She is in a hanging cheek link snaffle. No noticeable effect on brakes. Tried with a flash. Slight improvement. Although I don't want to use this really. But opening of gob is also a feature. Yes I've had back and teeth checked. She is strong by nature. She was in a Cheltenham gag which I personally don't like. So. I've heard good things about waterfords. To try or not to try!
 
I love my waterford universal I would try one in the school and start by doing plenty of transisions be really strong with her then ease off as she gets better i had a mare like this and this bit helped ,my cob loves this bit for hunting and then we go back into the snaffle for hacking a bit is only as strong as you use it so many people dont give with the bit so they think that just pulling on the bit will stop there horse usually the latter is that the horse will just pull also its a combination of schooling and using your seat and legs !! (I'm sure you know this !) you will need 1/2 a size bigger as these bits work round the lips as well. You say she's had her back looked at was this just a physio !! I use a McTimoney and she do's the whole body not just little bits if you see what I mean, good luck.
 
Sounds identical to another post I commented on by littlenicky called Bit advice. I suggested a grackle noseband to prevent the jaw crossing.
 
Loads of people swear by the waterford but my occasionally tanky mare was one of those who seemed heavier in front with it in! Didn't work for us. We went the reschooling route and she now wears a snaffle with a lozenge but we have considered trying a pelham if we send her hunting. What about a Myler combination - that had an effect on her.
 
You need to think about what the horse does when it's unruly waterfords are great for horses that lean and take a solid hold.
However on horses that raise the head you need poll pressure then some form of gag or Pelham is what I would try.
I don't like advising Bitting when I have not seen the horse and rider but it's important to think about what the horse does when making your choice.
 
Goldenstar said:
You need to think about what the horse does when it's unruly waterfords are great for horses that lean and take a solid hold.
However on horses that raise the head you need poll pressure then some form of gag or Pelham is what I would try.
I don't like advising Bitting when I have not seen the horse and rider but it's important to think about what the horse does when making your choice.
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Thats why I advised the universal you can even get better poll leveridge with the waterford jumping bit nue shule.
 
Are you having lessons? Interestingly my mare who can be strong and excitable when catering and jumping is no worse if I ride with no reins as I found out in my lesson last week. My instructor made me ride with no contact and only a very minimal amount of steering allowed too. We worked on slowing her with my seat and voice, and it was a real eye opener for me and I am going to do a lot more of this.
 
I would steer clear of waterfords - terrible things. If you understand the anatomy of the mouth, you will understand why. The bars of the lower jaw where the bit sits are very thin and easily damaged. Waterfords have nobbles which lie either side of the bars thereby exerting severe pressure on the delicate tissues, particularly if the bit is pulled sideways in the mouth. Obviously if you have incredibly still and gentle hands, the bit will be fine, but if not, can cause a lot of pain. Even the best rider can temporarily lose their balance and cause pain to the horse with the waterford.
 
Wagtail said:
I would steer clear of waterfords - terrible things. If you understand the anatomy of the mouth, you will understand why. The bars of the lower jaw where the bit sits are very thin and easily damaged. Waterfords have nobbles which lie either side of the bars thereby exerting severe pressure on the delicate tissues, particularly if the bit is pulled sideways in the mouth. Obviously if you have incredibly still and gentle hands, the bit will be fine, but if not, can cause a lot of pain. Even the best rider can temporarily lose their balance and cause pain to the horse with the waterford.
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The design of the neue schule Waterford does much alleviate this issue .
 
Some good advice there. We use a flash at the moment. She had the Cheltenham gag when she first arrived. But it seemed such a nasty piece of kit. Se hated it and I failed to see how she had been ridden in this for however long. So tried a loose ring snaffle no may as well not have been on board. She was off on her own hack! I try everytime we are out to sit deeper. Use my voice as much as I can. And try as much as possible not to pull. It's very much an uphill battle. And it gets me down sometimes
 
pip_dog said:
Some good advice there. We use a flash at the moment. She had the Cheltenham gag when she first arrived. But it seemed such a nasty piece of kit. Se hated it and I failed to see how she had been ridden in this for however long. So tried a loose ring snaffle no may as well not have been on board. She was off on her own hack! I try everytime we are out to sit deeper. Use my voice as much as I can. And try as much as possible not to pull. It's very much an uphill battle. And it gets me down sometimes
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Can you school in a lighter bit? or is she still strong?I really really persevered with schooling in a snaffle on 2 previous horses who were very very strong, but never wanted to risk myself out hacking or jumping competitively. As for stronger bits, i tend to throw out the rule book and just play around to see what the horse is happy with, its not always logical. My old event mare would tank and she came in a pelham. i hated jumping her in a pelham as felt she was too behind it, played around with various bits and ended up with a 3 ring snaffle, on the bottom ring. Which I also loathed as think it is a poor bit with crap steering. However, I had to agree that in XC my mare was happy in it, I could hold her and it worked as she would accept it. Still remains one of my least ever favourite bits though!
 
Wagtail said:
Will take a look. Thanks.
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It has a small curved 'normal bit of bit ' befor the bobbles start , however they are not a bit I like but it has to said I have known a lot of horses go well in them.
I would avoid their use combined with poll pressure if I possibly could that's a strong combination and potentially very unpleasant for the horse in all but the best most experianced hands.
 
If she actually went happily in the Cheltenham I would've given into it. But she just hated it. Poked her head in the air and just tried to evade. I do have a 3 ring floating about. I may try it. I'd like to show her. Haha if we can settle down! In which case a pelham will be needed. I'm thinking maybe next year! She can be lovely. But as soon as she's asked to slow or to do something not to madams taste. She just sticks head up and will not stop. She comes down the gears. But never a complete stop.
 
My mare is normally in a NS Verbindend and she goes lovely in this. However, when my daughter takes her show jumping I have her in a NS Waterford as she gets very excited and strong. This show jumping is new and as we progress she is slowly getting better but this is work in progress.
 
Goldenstar said:
It has a small curved 'normal bit of bit ' befor the bobbles start , however they are not a bit I like but it has to said I have known a lot of horses go well in them.
I would avoid their use combined with poll pressure if I possibly could that's a strong combination and potentially very unpleasant for the horse in all but the best most experianced hands.
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I can see that it's a real improvement, though still not a bit I would want to use, as although they have tried to overcome the problem with the bars, the nobbles are 'sharper' and the joints look as though they could possibly pinch the tongue.
 
Wagtail said:
I can see that it's a real improvement, though still not a bit I would want to use, as although they have tried to overcome the problem with the bars, the nobbles are 'sharper' and the joints look as though they could possibly pinch the tongue.
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I have cared for horses with awful sore mouths from waterfords I think the NS one will make a difference .
If a horse leans a lot and the rider is good think say a big strong well on showjumper the Waterford can be a great answer the trouble starts when they are used on a unruly horse running through the bridle I just hate to see it.
 
Have you tried a solid mouthpiece?

My mare was exactly like yours - giraffe impressions, pulling, setting her neck, evading etc. She just ran straight through anything jointed.

I tried her in a solid mouthpiece and she was so much more settled and accepting. Her bit of choice is a NS Show pelham with an enormous forward port (tongue room), and if she is being strong, a Sam Marsh. She is so relaxed with a lovely foamy mouth in these bits, I can ride off the buckle end where it is safe to. Something I could never do in a jointed bit. For Dressage, she tolerates a mullen mouthed baucher.
She is snaffle mouthed, but not snaffle headed sadly.
 
That's exactly it. Snaffle mouthed but not minded! I was unsure about a solid mouth piece. As I'd heard mixed reviews about it just giving pullers much more to pull and lean on. Oh it's such a complicated issue!
 
Are her normal bits jointed then? She may be sticking her head up if she is trying to avoid the nutcracker action.

Try her in something with a french link or lozenge. I like to try and establish what is the right mouthpiece for the horse before sticking stronger bits in. At least then you know that they are comfortable in their mouth and can then start experimenting with leverage and so forth!

Good luck :D
 
FfionWinnie said:
Are you having lessons? Interestingly my mare who can be strong and excitable when catering and jumping is no worse if I ride with no reins as I found out in my lesson last week. My instructor made me ride with no contact and only a very minimal amount of steering allowed too. We worked on slowing her with my seat and voice, and it was a real eye opener for me and I am going to do a lot more of this.
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Daughter's NF used to tank off a lot - is amazing how much better he is with schooling.
 
Cheltenham was single jointed. The current hanging cheek is a lozenge. She's a bit quieter in the link. But still mad as a hatter at times
 
From what you say it sounds more like a schooling issue than a bitting one. I'd be looking to try different mouthpieces (french link, mullen mouth, straight bar, ported, different materials etc) to find one that suits, rather than actual bits. And whilst schooling is still in progress, if its a safety issue then perhaps a pelham or something with two reins so you can ride on the snaffle with the second rein for emergencies. But really sounds like schooling more than bitting.
Have you ever just tried riding with her on the buckle only? I've reschooled a few who had previously been ridden with very heavy hands & harsh tack (one came with a rep for snapping standing martingales that were always fitted too tight) & as a result had very hard mouths which they'd learnt to pull with. In somewhere enclosed, riding with zero rein contact eventually got them to realise I wasn't interested with playing tug of war with the reins, they can't pull with nothing to pull against. Yes, they might race off a bit, but nothing runs forever. Sooner or later they tire & end up long & low, & listen to your seat & legs. And everyday they take less time to start listening, & can focus on that if not focused on pulling. Then, once they are happy on a loose rein & responsive in all 3 paces to seat & leg, you slowly take the reins back.
 
Yes I appreciate there's a few schooling issues. When she's bobbing along nicely. She's lovely. When something exciting happens. She's mad. Prob a stupid question. But how do I get her to bend more. Like. At the poll. Rather than scooting along either head in air or just not listening. I want as much advice as poss!
 
Perhaps you could use a bit bank?

I find these people very helpful. They are good to chat to.
http://horsebitbank.com/

Regards bending, I find that when Star gets on her toes, lateral work stops her from setting herself against me.
I found that when she is in a straight line, she can really pull. But if I can keep a bit of bend, it makes life just that litlle more difficult for her.
Also, I found that alternatively squeezing the reins (not sawing!!!!), to keep the bit mobile in her mouth stopped her from leaning on it. If she leaned or grabbed, I would give the rein on that side. Sort of 'if you want it that badly, then have it'. Nothing to lean on.
But it took time, and lessons as well.
 
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I have my boy in a NS waterford elevator - in any other bit he leans on it takes off head down backside up and you can problably guess the rest of the story - however since getting my NS he is a baby boy soft as anything - if he dies want to take off I use the slightest of pressure and within 2 strides he is back with me. I use the bit with roundings if you want to try a bit you cold always try a bit hire company who will also give advice. My boy grew a bit this yr and i reverted to a bog std waterford fulmer - BIG mistake so bit the bullet and ordered a bigger NS bit - they are expensive but I kind of think of the dislocated collar bone I had and broken ribs I had from him decking me taking off. Money well spent.!
 
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