Perception of YO responsibilities

YorksG

Over the hill and far awa
Joined
14 September 2006
Messages
13,797
Location
West Yorkshire
A few recent threads have had me pondering :) Often there are threads which recomend that novice owners put their horses on livery with knowledgeable owners, so that they can be given the appropriate advice and be kept on the right track. Then there are the theads which suggest that YO should intervene between squabling liveries. Then there are the threads which say that there is no way that the YO should interfere with what an owner does with their own horse, even if others believe that there are welfare issues for the horse, such as incorrect feeding, under rugging etc.
How does a YO do the right thing, in the eyes of their liveries? We don't have liveries here, and never will, but I am fascinated by the differing perceptions shown on this board.
 

webble

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 August 2012
Messages
3,652
Location
Border of Cheshire/Wirral/ N Wales
I would expect a yard owner to provide the following for diy with stable
Stable, maintained by YO
Safe secure fencing, maintained by yo
Suitable grazing, ragwort and poo picking by livery topping harrowing etc done by yo
Storage for tack feed etc maintained by yo
I would expect yo to cast an eye over horses if they are around and advise livery if any problems but wouldn’t expect this unless offered as a service. I wouldn’t expect them to interfere in day to day care unless there was an obvious health or health and safety issue or the livery had asked them to
I would expect yo to intervene in any disputes/ issues on the yard between liveries
 

muddy_grey

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 October 2007
Messages
1,502
Location
Kent
As webble has said for DIY, obviously more for other types of livery. It seems most problems occur when people don't communicate so I guess I would add talk to your liveries and be approachable - not always easy!
 

YorksG

Over the hill and far awa
Joined
14 September 2006
Messages
13,797
Location
West Yorkshire
Intereseting replies, you see I would view feeding as a welfare issue and would never allow a horse to be left with insuffiient forrage, or to be fed innappropriate amounts of concentrates. I would also be very unhappy with horses overheating in rugs which were too heavy for the condition of the horse and the weather, and would intervene, partly because I would consider that unless the horse owner had given me a very convincing explanation of why, that it was being done out of ignorance.
 

muddy_grey

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 October 2007
Messages
1,502
Location
Kent
See but this is my point YorksG you need to have a relationship that allows you to do this, but you should ALWAYS tell the livery what and why you have done something. Maybe I have been lucky or I like to think I have encouraged it, but I have always had a great relationship with my YO's. If you turn your horse out at 6.30am the weather can be completely different by noon so I was always happy for them to change rugs if they felt the need, but always appreciated a quick text or note left on my box. If I didn't agree with something then I would explain my reasons and discuss. I am shocked at the number of posts about YO's doing things without the knowledge of the livery. If the livery is a novice then how will they learn if they don't know things are being done for them. I am not saying this is easy and it requires effort from both sides not just YO and some people will never listen!
 

Tiddlypom

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 July 2013
Messages
13,138
Location
In between the Midlands and the North
^^^ Me, too, YorksG.

I couldn't be a YO either, I would never manage to zip it if I saw a horse being cared for inappropriately. Pity, as people like us could probably offer a very good standard of livery, whether DIY or whatever.

Not at all sure about mediating in disputes between liveries. It would depend very much on what the dispute was about.

I that YOs must be complete saints or fairly bonkers, or probably a mix of the two ;).

Having said all this, I was a DIY livery on a yard run by a dragon lady BHSI who kept very close tabs on all her liveries. We did things her way, or we got booted off the yard. Learnt a lot from her, though, and the horses were all very happy and settled.
 

KAZJAZ

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 December 2009
Messages
168
Location
South West Scotland
I am on a DIY yard and it is exactly that, the YO does not live on site, visits the yard approx. 1 a week if that, if there are any problems with fencing / stables / water supply he is informed and will fix it. There are no other services offered at the yard, if you go on holiday we all help each other out or you pay for someone to look after your horse whilst your away.

YO will not tolerate trouble makers (liveries or horses) but would never interfere in how a horse is looked after even if other liveries on the yard disagree with how horse is being kept.

On our yard of 15 liveries / 21 horses in general everyone gets on really well but there is a huge variety of breed/type of horses and leisure/competitive riders. those less experienced may ask others opinions and will get told something different depending on who they ask, others don't ask at all, don't check, over/under feed, over/under rug!! There really isn't anything that can be done about that when the YO makes it clear the yard is DIY and they aren't there to oversee what goes on.

It would drive you mad at times but i'm there to look after and enjoy my horses and whilst I don't always agree with how others look after their horses the yard itself suits me and my horses very well.
 

YorksG

Over the hill and far awa
Joined
14 September 2006
Messages
13,797
Location
West Yorkshire
See but this is my point YorksG you need to have a relationship that allows you to do this, but you should ALWAYS tell the livery what and why you have done something. Maybe I have been lucky or I like to think I have encouraged it, but I have always had a great relationship with my YO's. If you turn your horse out at 6.30am the weather can be completely different by noon so I was always happy for them to change rugs if they felt the need, but always appreciated a quick text or note left on my box. If I didn't agree with something then I would explain my reasons and discuss. I am shocked at the number of posts about YO's doing things without the knowledge of the livery. If the livery is a novice then how will they learn if they don't know things are being done for them. I am not saying this is easy and it requires effort from both sides not just YO and some people will never listen!
^^^ Me, too, YorksG.

I couldn't be a YO either, I would never manage to zip it if I saw a horse being cared for inappropriately. Pity, as people like us could probably offer a very good standard of livery, whether DIY or whatever.

Not at all sure about mediating in disputes between liveries. It would depend very much on what the dispute was about.

I that YOs must be complete saints or fairly bonkers, or probably a mix of the two ;).

Having said all this, I was a DIY livery on a yard run by a dragon lady BHSI who kept very close tabs on all her liveries. We did things her way, or we got booted off the yard. Learnt a lot from her, though, and the horses were all very happy and settled.
I think you are right Tiddlypom! but I will never find out :)
MuddyGrey, would novice owners be prepared to pay for their lessons in horse care? I doubt it very much, as there are an awful lot of people who believe that they know what they are doing, when they obviously don't! It equates to my suggestion to our farrier that he do "training trims" for young horses, and charge an appropriately larger fee, not many can see the point sadly :(
 

tabithakat64

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 October 2006
Messages
5,941
Location
Herts, UK
I would expect a yard owner to provide the following for diy with stable
Stable, maintained by YO
Safe secure fencing, maintained by yo
Suitable grazing, ragwort and poo picking by livery topping harrowing etc done by yo
Storage for tack feed etc maintained by yo
I would expect yo to cast an eye over horses if they are around and advise livery if any problems but wouldn’t expect this unless offered as a service. I wouldn’t expect them to interfere in day to day care unless there was an obvious health or health and safety issue or the livery had asked them to
I would expect yo to intervene in any disputes/ issues on the yard between liveries
Hmm not really sure where I stand on the livery pulling ragwort (having sprayed but mostly pulled ragwort)- it's usually more effective to spray.
Also maintaining toughs - YO
Ensuring horses have water generally should be down to the livery however the RSPCA will argue that is part of the YO duty of care.
 

webble

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 August 2012
Messages
3,652
Location
Border of Cheshire/Wirral/ N Wales
Intereseting replies, you see I would view feeding as a welfare issue and would never allow a horse to be left with insuffiient forrage, or to be fed innappropriate amounts of concentrates. I would also be very unhappy with horses overheating in rugs which were too heavy for the condition of the horse and the weather, and would intervene, partly because I would consider that unless the horse owner had given me a very convincing explanation of why, that it was being done out of ignorance.
I agree but unless you are talking extremes that's a tough one as it is slightly subjective. I put my boy I a fly rug for the first time yesterday, he was a bit warm in it but he was less bothered by the flies. Someone else might see that as wrong and see the flies as less of an issue
 

webble

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 August 2012
Messages
3,652
Location
Border of Cheshire/Wirral/ N Wales
Hmm not really sure where I stand on the livery pulling ragwort (having sprayed but mostly pulled ragwort)- it's usually more effective to spray.
Also maintaining toughs - YO
Ensuring horses have water generally should be down to the livery however the RSPCA will argue that is part of the YO duty of care.
I think its probably because everywhere I have been has been that way re ragwort. Yes agree re troughs, yo to maintain but livery responsible for filling. Again I would want a yo to step in if a livery wasn't doing this as it is a basic requirement
 

WelshD

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 October 2009
Messages
7,764
I suppose its different depending on whether the YO is horsey or not

If the YO is horsey I would expect a single standard therefore when considering welfare I would expect the YO to offer advice if they feel my welfare standard was in question on a subject the same way as I would expect them to approach someone else

you see all the time on these forums people who expect the YO to intervene with the welfare of another horse on the yard but is 'out of order' when they comment on the person's own horse's care
 

Barnacle

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 January 2015
Messages
773
Location
London
For me the YO's responsibility is to very clearly lay out what they intend to be responsible for from the outset. Liveries are a business offering a service - they can each do as they please as long as it's clearly stated on the packet!
 

YorksG

Over the hill and far awa
Joined
14 September 2006
Messages
13,797
Location
West Yorkshire
I suppose its different depending on whether the YO is horsey or not

If the YO is horsey I would expect a single standard therefore when considering welfare I would expect the YO to offer advice if they feel my welfare standard was in question on a subject the same way as I would expect them to approach someone else

you see all the time on these forums people who expect the YO to intervene with the welfare of another horse on the yard but is 'out of order' when they comment on the person's own horse's care
The last paragraph of this post was partly the inspiration for the OP, the problem with expecting a single standard, is that so many people don't understand what they don't know and will inflate their own perceived knowledge. I was genuinly shocked on another thread at the low level of knowledge of the basics of horse (or indeed any mammals) digestive tract, if this basic knowledge is unknown, then I dread to think what else isn't known :(
 

Exploding Chestnuts

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 June 2013
Messages
8,400
Not read all the posts, but legally the YO has some responsibilty to the animals in his care. If he rents out the yard to someone else then he has passed that responsibility on.
If the YO thinks welfare is being compromised he has the same duty as any random person, but he knows the situation on site, he can't just walk away UNLESS he has no idea about welfare, but of course ignorance of the law is no excuse. Any YO can make his own rules and if someone does not agree to these rules, he leaves.
 

Pearlsasinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 February 2009
Messages
30,678
Location
W. Yorks
I can't believe the level of ignorance from some people who think they have sufficient knowledge and experience to own a horse and keep it on DIY.
Neither can I believe the lack of knowledge exhibited by some of those who profess to be capable, hands-on YOs.
Surely it is not too much to expect someone who is considering buying a horse to read a basic book about the horse's digestive system and its feeding/watering requirements, the horse's hooves and its basic trimming/daily care requirements, basic signs of good/ill health, basic requirements for shelter and companionship, is it?
I know that none of us know everything and should always be learning about our own horses and others but why on earth would any-one who does not even know the absolute basics, such as a suitable feeding regime, consider buying a horse?
Where do these people have their first riding lessons? Are they not given any stable-management techniques by their first teachers, at all?
 

YorksG

Over the hill and far awa
Joined
14 September 2006
Messages
13,797
Location
West Yorkshire
For me the YO's responsibility is to very clearly lay out what they intend to be responsible for from the outset. Liveries are a business offering a service - they can each do as they please as long as it's clearly stated on the packet!
But how many people will then accept that their standard of care is substandard, after the YO has stated at the beginning that they will intervene when they see substandard care?
 

Pearlsasinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 February 2009
Messages
30,678
Location
W. Yorks
But how many people will then accept that their standard of care is substandard, after the YO has stated at the beginning that they will intervene when they see substandard care?
And how many will tell liveries that the horse which is living out perfectly happily and healthily unrugged, needs to be rugged up against the elements/flies? Or advocate leaving horses standing in for hours with nothing to eat when a trug of oat straw chaff could make all the difference between a fat horse and one with ulcers? Or insist that youngsters should be given Stud Nuts needlessly, risking limb damage? The list could go on!
 

ChesnutsRoasting

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 December 2009
Messages
3,356
A few recent threads have had me pondering :) Often there are threads which recomend that novice owners put their horses on livery with knowledgeable owners, so that they can be given the appropriate advice and be kept on the right track. Then there are the theads which suggest that YO should intervene between squabling liveries. Then there are the threads which say that there is no way that the YO should interfere with what an owner does with their own horse, even if others believe that there are welfare issues for the horse, such as incorrect feeding, under rugging etc.
How does a YO do the right thing, in the eyes of their liveries? We don't have liveries here, and never will, but I am fascinated by the differing perceptions shown on this board.
The YO's duty of care is towards the horse not the owner. If a horse is suffering due to the owners ignorance or negligence, then YO's should step in.
 

ChesnutsRoasting

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 December 2009
Messages
3,356
I can't believe the level of ignorance from some people who think they have sufficient knowledge and experience to own a horse and keep it on DIY.
Neither can I believe the lack of knowledge exhibited by some of those who profess to be capable, hands-on YOs.
Surely it is not too much to expect someone who is considering buying a horse to read a basic book about the horse's digestive system and its feeding/watering requirements, the horse's hooves and its basic trimming/daily care requirements, basic signs of good/ill health, basic requirements for shelter and companionship, is it?
I know that none of us know everything and should always be learning about our own horses and others but why on earth would any-one who does not even know the absolute basics, such as a suitable feeding regime, consider buying a horse?
Where do these people have their first riding lessons? Are they not given any stable-management techniques by their first teachers, at all?
This. 100%.
 

Regandal

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 August 2011
Messages
2,047
Location
Perthshire
It's very difficult. You would think with Google that most people would research & learn. Apparently not. An acquaintance is trying to slim a horse down. He comes in to a small net of soaked hay, which gets wolfed. He then stands for hours with nothing. This 'will teach him not to bolt his hay. When it's gone, it's gone. Tough'. No wonder I drink.....pass the gin.
 

Barnacle

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 January 2015
Messages
773
Location
London
But how many people will then accept that their standard of care is substandard, after the YO has stated at the beginning that they will intervene when they see substandard care?
That's really not how a YO should spell out what they intend to be involved in... They shouldn't just say "I will intervene if I believe the standard of care to be substandard". They should state, horses should have x amount of this and x amount of that minimum/maximum. This many hours this and that. This frequency of vet, farrier, dentist etc. If you're going to spell it out from the start, it should be done properly. It's a one-off investment to sit down and write out your expectations and then allow potential liveries to decide if they are on the same page or not. Just as you would expect if you were renting a flat and there were conditions attached. The horsey world is far too half-assed IMO. At least at the level an 'average' owner encounters. It's not like this everywhere - in other parts of Europe these things are taken more seriously. People need to sit down and do things properly in the UK too. Write out documents and actually bother to spell stuff out. Everyone would get along much better and there'd be clearer boundaries.
 

YorksG

Over the hill and far awa
Joined
14 September 2006
Messages
13,797
Location
West Yorkshire
That's really not how a YO should spell out what they intend to be involved in... They shouldn't just say "I will intervene if I believe the standard of care to be substandard". They should state, horses should have x amount of this and x amount of that minimum/maximum. This many hours this and that. This frequency of vet, farrier, dentist etc. If you're going to spell it out from the start, it should be done properly. It's a one-off investment to sit down and write out your expectations and then allow potential liveries to decide if they are on the same page or not. Just as you would expect if you were renting a flat and there were conditions attached. The horsey world is far too half-assed IMO. At least at the level an 'average' owner encounters. It's not like this everywhere - in other parts of Europe these things are taken more seriously. People need to sit down and do things properly in the UK too. Write out documents and actually bother to spell stuff out. Everyone would get along much better and there'd be clearer boundaries.
Another reason I would never have liveries! Dear God if you have to spell that out, the person should not be owning a horse at all! Plus there are differences for each horse with such things as dental and hoof care, or there are in my world, also we have four horses currently who's needs, while broadly similar, are different and we tailor the regimes to suit the horses we have in front of us, this is for such things as forage amounts, rugging, hoof care, excersie etc. If you are providing full livery, then you would get to know the horse and it's requirements, but it would be impossible to set up all of that before the horse was accepted onto the yard IMO
 
Top