Perfect walk.... how do i take it to trot and canter?

[Lill]

Don't know if anyone remembers me posting a few weeks back about Blue and his flatwork... well we had a lesson 3 weeks ago and since then he has improved no end its like something has 'clicked'

I can now get him to walk round and bending slightly to the inside and into a nice light contact the first time i ask and he can sustain this really nicely in walk on both reins.

HOWEVER as soon as i ask for trot his head goes up and its all unbalanced again, but after maybe a 20m circle i can sort of get him back together and he goes fairly nicely, more so on the right rein (stronger rein) than the left... but he can't keep it for more than a 20m circle so i end up going back to walk and starting all over again.

Have another lesson on Fri so am hoping it all may become clearer by then but what would help him to keep the same shape and contact he has in walk all through his paces?

Is it just practice? After the lesson 3 weeks back he could become soft and round in walk but only after a short warm up and then an extra 20 mins work, now he can do it pretty much straight away after short warm up so am wondering if i just need to persevere?

Ride him in a 3 ring but on the snaffle ring...

 

[kerilli]

yep, it's just calm perseverance. you should really have him in a normal snaffle, if only so he's in the same thing when you start doing dressage comps maybe? i'd go for single-joint, ideally fulmer, with keepers, all little things that help make it simple and which make what you want, obvious to the horse.
as long as you can get him going as you want for a bit, be happy, don't try to "hang on to it" if you lose it, just calmly reapply your aids and wait until it works again. and again. and again. don't change anything, don't tense up, don't "try hard", just relax, smile, breathe, and repeat! you've already had a great improvement in 3 weeks by the sounds of it, so it'll just carry on, in time! even if he only improved 1% per lesson, he'll get there!

 

[dianchi]

Keep trying, i wouldnt keep coming back to walk every time otherwise he'll soon cotten on that he will get to walk all the time if he disobeys. Ride forward and just keep the contact and asking himto come soft.
Agree with kerilli that 3 ring isnt an ideal schooling/dressage bit.
Im sure your instructor will give u exercises to help with balance but dnt obeses over it as that only gets u tense and then will cause him to get tense.

 

[Lill]

He's only in the 3 ring as i had him in a full cheek snaffle but i jump him in the 3 ring and i kept forgetting to take it when i took him showjumping (he gets a bit strong jumping) so it was easier for me to just keep him in the 3 ring all the time and move the roundings for the shows...

 

[hannah87]

its much easier to push them into the contact in sitting trot rather than rising , just keep focusing on getting his back end working and the front end will come

 

[kerilli]

the full cheek snaffle is much much better for schooling. much more stable in the mouth, plus the sides give a tiny bit of steering, and stop the bit moving sideways. if you use keepers on the sides, it also gives a tiny bit of poll pressure, which gives a young/clueless horse an idea of what you want.
i can't quite believe you can't be bothered to change the bit before a show!

 

[Lill]

Not that i couldn't be bothered more than i kept forgetting!! When i have enough money i will probably buy a separate bridle and have a show bridle and an at home bridle.

How do the keepers fit on the sides of the full cheek?

 

[kerilli]

the keepers are figure-8 shaped leather loops, the longer loop fits through the cheekpiece at the bottom, as you put it onto the bit ring, and the shorter loop fits over the bit's metal side-piece. they stop the bit from rotating forward, keep it upright. hope that makes sense.

 

[Lill]

Oh right ok.... why is it better that the bit is kept upright though?

 

[kerilli]

because it stops it from changing angle as you take a contact. keeps it still in the horse's mouth, so you can give a more precise aid with the bit. used properly, keeping one hand still and lightly using the other to send messages down the rein, you can feel the tongue under the bit, and the stiller the bit, the more precise the communication, and the more comfortable the horse.

 

[Tierra]

Few things to consider. Firstly, when moving into trot, you have to deal with your own position in rising trot. A variety of problems can arise that can affect the horses ability to work into a contact, one being that if the riders' hands move up and down a lot with the rise, the contact alters every stride making it too inconsistent to work into. Secondly, unless the rider is very balanced in position, many knock the horses balance off slightly.

I was always told that the rider needed to be like the pole running through a carousel horse. If they tipped forwards, they'd press the bit down in the mouth and tip the whole balance onto the forehand (as well as likely dropping the hand low so that the part they are using to ask the horse for anything is the forearm and the wrist).

If they tip back, which is less common, they are risking pressing on the more delicate part of the back.

If they arent sitting correctly, then they'll cause the horse to hollow away from their seat which likely sees the head shoot in the air or results in a very false outline should the hand be strong enough to put the horse there.

So the actual act of rising and sitting to the trot makes working the horse correctly quite hard in the early stages.

On the other hand, you shouldnt be sitting to the trot until the horse is working correctly over its back as it can cause damage.

So yes, its easier to gain collection from sitting trot but you should still get the horse working correctly from behind and over its back in rising trot.

You need to focus, not on the head position, but on getting the horse working from behind in the trot. Its not until the hind legs are correctly engaged and working correctly over the back, that the head carriage or the outline will come.

Many people find it easier to work on the canter after the walk as again, you're seat is in the saddle most of the time making it an easier pace in which to maintain a good position.

Id be working in using lots and lots of lateral work in walk to help get the back end working and then probably move to the canter.. Of course, dont ignore the trot, but equally dont get hung up on the outline in trot.

Also, to bring things into perspective, even at GP level dressage riders will tell you that keeping the horse working correctly in all 3 paces is something they spend a LOT of time working on. People can spend a life time learning HOW to ride correctly. Just always remember that the head position is the last piece in the jigsaw, its the rest of the body that needs to come first.

 

[Persephone]

Hi Lis, sorry not trying to hijack your thread but I have exactly the same problem at the moment, although I have got to the stage where we can get a nice balanced supple trot on the right rein, but left rein goes t*ts up every time. She is perfect both reins in walk but as soon as I ask her to trot on the left she evades constantly, won't go in the tracks, puts me along the fence etc. I am at my wits end! Even just asking her to go on a loose rein she asses about. I've tried rising, sitting, stirrups, no stirrups. I'm feeling really stuck.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

 

[Stella]

I have the same issues, but realise as Kerilli says, that I must persivere and be pleased with gradual improvements. I just wanted to say thanks Tierra for that useful, comprehensive account

 

[Lill]

Thanks

Think will go with rising trot with sitting for a couple of strides every now for the moment then. The instructor i had a lesson with 3 weeks ago said Blue's paces are fine if you just look at his legs its the rest of him that needs to be sorted out

he has quite a big bouncy trot and both trot and canter have a nice rhythm although canter not so great on the right rein (weirdly - its his strong side usually).

Am please with how he's come on in the 3 weeks so think i've just got to be patient and expect a little at a time.

 

[Tierra]

Yeps

Try not to get too hung up on the head issue thing. Its really hard.. but working a horse correctly takes time, as does schooling the horse correctly. You might go weeks and even months of struggling and then something will click.

A lot of dressage is about being able to feel certain things and no one can teach you that, you'll know once it happens and then you dont forget.

Also, the more you advance both as a rider and as a combination, the more you'll start to predict whats happening under you. At the start, its usually a lot of "got it, got it... lost it... got it... lost it... lost it lost it, oh my god whats going on, lost it, got it! !$!"$! lost it" etc.

As you grow together, you'll be able to respond faster and subtler to the tiny tell tale signs that appear when you're about to lose "it". The tough thing about dressage is that good riders make it look like they arent doing a thing when in actual fact, its such very very hard work and you have to be very fast in regards to correcting issues or catching them before they show, because anything not quite right through the body, will be reflected in the head position.

Big trots can be especially hard because they tend to catapult the rider in rising trot, which makes it even more difficult to maintain a good, balanced core position and to keep your contact consistent

One thing to perhaps try if you do think you have a hands problem, is to attach some twine around the d rings of your saddle to give you a loop. You can then hook younr fingers around this in rising trot and it gives you a stabling effect to anchor your hands in place (although be sure not to make it too small a loop or you'll lock your hands too far down which definitly isnt good either!).

Its really really hard to not get frustrated when trying to learn how to ride a horse correctly, because when things dont come together, its tempting to get too heavy in the hand which just sends things backwards.

Always try to remember to not fret about the head and if in any doubt, push forwards more! People always underestimate how much forwards impulsion is required to get a horse really really working but often in the early stages, the answer comes down to asking for more

Another useful idea is to always try and have the occasional lunge lesson. Everything about your position is so very vital and having a good position can solve so many problems.

 

[Tierra]

p.s. also try to remember that seeing a horse working forwards actively with a tidy rider but above the bit is always a much more attractive picture than a horse lacking impulsion and being dragged into a false outline by a desperate looking rider

 

[minerva]

Oooh this is a very helpful post, thanks for bringing it up Lis

How is going in Denmark Tierra, is the yard a great as it looked?

 

[Lill]

You're not kidding its taken us 18 months to finally get some results!! And that was 3 weeks ago but since then he's really improved much quicker than i'd hoped given my struggles previously!

Blue is more of a showjumper but i realise i need to work on his flatwork to improve his jumping so thats what i've been trying to do, friends have been trying to convince me to go to a dressage competition but i'm not yet sure that we're ready!

How can i get him to realise it is possible for him to bend in canter as he does in walk? He can bend a little in trot but not loads.

Re the hands i know i carry my hands to low most of the time and have been trying to make an effort to hold them higher but i don't always remember!

 

[Tierra]

Regarding hands - you need to imagine you're carrying a tray between your wrists and your elbow. That tray has drinks on that need to not be spilt!

The elbow is basically the pulley in the arm. It allows the give and take of the reins to occur. Hence your arm needs to stay nice and flexible and not fixed. For this to happen, that elbow needs to remain open with the hand up.

If you imagine dropping your hand lower (you can think about this while just sat at the pc) and then try to move the hand backwards and forwards as if the horse was pulling at the hand - the mobility of the arm is drastically reduced as it all comes from the wrist and the forehand. Lift your lower arm back up so you create almost a 90 degrees angle at your elbow, and you can see the give and take comes more from the upper arm and you have much more flexibility.

Another good trick for arms is to ride with a schooling whip behind your back and your elbows threaded through it. This helps keep them up and back. (Again, if they creep too far forwards you lose the bend in your elbow regardless of how high they are and again, you lose the flexibility through the arm, which MUST stay elastic to work the horse correctly)

In canter, again, make sure you dont try and slow the canter down to much or restrain it with the hand in an attempt to get control of the head. Focus initially on getting it moving forwards. Restraing a canter by the hand can also result in stiffling it too much and creating a four-time canter which you obviously dont want. Once you have the horse working forwards correctly, id start by literally just trying to flex him to alternate sides enough to see the eye on the side you're flexing too. You may need to be quite firm to begin with and make sure when he does it that you keep a check on what his quarters are doing (you dont want banana shapes occuring.. the rest of the body needs to be straight) and again, ensure he's not slowing down, keep checking the pace and maintaining the impulsion.

In walk, ensure you're doing lots of lateral work to get him using his back end and again, ensure you're flexing him correctly in this. Leg yielding and half pass both require a degree of flexion so use these on both reins.

One last thing to perhaps note. Working a horse a lot in an outline in walk can be detrimental to the pace. Lots of top dressage riders are very warey about doing a lot of walk work in a quite contained outline as walk is a very easy pace to ruin.

Also for those having problems in trot, remember to try and work in a longer, looser outline than battling for a higher more correct outline initially.

Also as early as possible, get the horse used to doing half halts to help shift his weight backwards. A half halt should be considered as a readjustment of the balance and can be used in all paces to help pause and get things back on track.

 

[Tierra]

The yard is great although much bigger than Im used to! I was based with my trainer in the UK and we had like 8 liveries when i left and a couple of those were full time liveries so were rarely around.

Im now on a yard with 50 stables

I also miss my trainer like crazy. She knew jack and i inside out and the main trainer on the yard here is quite tough and a bit too harsh for my liking so im kinda trainer-less atm!

The centre plays host to a lot of international shows though and Jack had one of the stallions from the Blue Hors Stud next to him last weekend!

 

[Tierra]

Evading how exactly?

Its difficult to make suggestions as to whats going on without knowing more details

Id get the usual back, teeth, saddle checks done first. Then look at how she moves on the lunge in both directions (take note of if both hind legs are coming through as much, whether theres any issues with bending and so on)

From there id get someone more experienced on and see if the same problems occur then (trainer is useful here!)

And then you can start to narrow down whether the problem is physical, rider based, schooling based (for the horse) or a combination

 

[Persephone]

[ QUOTE ]
Evading how exactly?

Its difficult to make suggestions as to whats going on without knowing more details

Id get the usual back, teeth, saddle checks done first. Then look at how she moves on the lunge in both directions (take note of if both hind legs are coming through as much, whether theres any issues with bending and so on)

From there id get someone more experienced on and see if the same problems occur then (trainer is useful here!)

And then you can start to narrow down whether the problem is physical, rider based, schooling based (for the horse) or a combination

[/ QUOTE ]

We've done the teeth back workout, but I was thinking of popping her on the lunge when I go up in a min. She is evading by putting her head to the left at about a 45 degree angle but as I said she did it with a loose rein too she was initially doing it in walk but then settled . trot was "no way"
I had a lesson yesterday and she was fine, then borrowed the school today and she was a disaster on the left rein. I've got another lesson tomorrow morning but just wanted stuff to have a think about in the mean time.

I do really feel I've let her down because we haven't had a lesson in 6 weeks and now I just feel that we have both gone really backward.

 

[Lill]

Thanks

Don't quite understand how the schooling whip behind your back would work?

I've always ridden with my hands low so its so difficult to remember to try and hold them higher! I can do it for a bit as soon as i've realised they are low but sooner or later they creep back down again

Again last night we got it straight away in walk

so did lots of walk, figures of 8, small figures of 8 and circles before trying trot.... he got it on the right rein but struggled on the left... but by the end of riding him last night he could work properly in trot most of the time on the right rein and some of the time on the left rein. Was really pleased with him! Seems to be coming on really nicely since that lesson, hopefully have another 30mins tonight with the same lady so will report on how that goes

I have trouble on the left rein asking him to bend to the left and keeping him on the track? Possibly because my left leg is not as strong as my right as i don't have this problem on the right rein?

Did not do any canter, although it is his canter that i will need the most when it comes to jumping

 

[Persephone]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks

Don't quite understand how the schooling whip behind your back would work?

I've always ridden with my hands low so its so difficult to remember to try and hold them higher! I can do it for a bit as soon as i've realised they are low but sooner or later they creep back down again

Again last night we got it straight away in walk

so did lots of walk, figures of 8, small figures of 8 and circles before trying trot.... he got it on the right rein but struggled on the left... but by the end of riding him last night he could work properly in trot most of the time on the right rein and some of the time on the left rein. Was really pleased with him! Seems to be coming on really nicely since that lesson, hopefully have another 30mins tonight with the same lady so will report on how that goes

I have trouble on the left rein asking him to bend to the left and keeping him on the track? Possibly because my left leg is not as strong as my right as i don't have this problem on the right rein?

Did not do any canter, although it is his canter that i will need the most when it comes to jumping

[/ QUOTE ]


That was exactly the problem I was having on the left rein. She was coming out of the track and scraping me along the fence. Had lesson this morning and it's sorted. God knows why but I was raising my right hand slightly losing the contact on that side, she was drifting and no amount of leg made any difference. I'm sooooo glad I know what I was doing wrong. By the end of the hour she was working beautifully on both reins in walk and trot, large and in 20m circles.

Good look tonight, hope you have a breakthrough too!!

 

[minerva]

Glad its all ok in Denmark but a shame about your trainer its really hard to get that relationship to work well, at least Jack has 50 odd new friends to make! and he sounds like he taken to the move well if they can put the posh stallion next to him.

I took your advice and worked on my Jack today and got a lot more power from behind so thank you, I may print this thread off and keep it at the yard actually