Photos.. The Grange Futurity... warning very very long report....

[cruiseline]

Well here you all are the long awaited photos and details of the futurity for my babies!!!!!!!

Unfortunately the level of the ground for the vetting was not ideal, it makes ALL of them look far more bum high than they actually are. We took videos of the loose evaluation, so unfortunately no photos available. I have included their breeding again for you to see and the evaluators comments, which I felt were right on the button.

Sorry photos are not brilliant, but they give you an idea.

Private e Motion

Private B Riker x Pro-Set, spotty botty colt foal - 1st Premium Dressage

A little low in neck line, but well matured through back and loins (8). Nice well defined limbs, a little out behind from point of hock (7.5). Straight and true to type (8). Lacks a little swing through loins, but in general good (8). Attractive foal, nice attitude (8.5).

Sandroa Du Rouet

Balou Du Rouet x Sandro, dark bay filly - 1st Premium - Showjumping

Paints a picture, nice foal, harmonious (9.5). Long in front pasterns, but nice dry limbs (7.5). Very good trot, economical walk, nice hind leg in canter (9). Nice swing/movement in whole body (8.75). what you would expect for type (9.25)

Bliss Du Rouet

Balou Du Rouet x Sandro. Bay yearling filly - 1st Premium - Showjumping

Light and well proportioned (8.75). Little weak in hock and lightly long back pasterns (7.75). Better trot and canter (8.50). Supple and elastic (8.50). Nice type with good attitude (8.50)

Heavenly Stranger

Handsome Stranger x Calvados. Bay yearling filly - Eventing 1st Premium / Showjumping 1st Premium

Little high behind (8.5). Dry and clean, little light in bone (8). Workmanlike (8.5). Supple and light, with ability to engage hind leg (8.5). Light on feet and good scope (8.5)

Babs Du Rouet

Balou Du Rouet x Cruise On, Chestnut 2 year old filly - 1st Premium Showjumping

I don't have a copy of her evaluation form with me, sorry

Benita Moon

Mooiman x Donnavan, Bay 2 year old filly - 1st Premium Sports Pony

Harmonious, good withers (8.5). Clean lines of limb (8.25). Lacking clean sequence in canter, walk not closing (8). Could be more supple in back in canter (8) Good type and temperament (8)

Gallavant

Grannox x Sandro. Dark bay 3 year old filly - 1st Premium Dressage - Elite Showjumping (I will give the dressage evaluation first, then the showjumping)

Dressage
A little weak in loin (8.75) Clean and strong (9) Weak walk not holding rhythm (8.5) Good use of body and back (9) Could be more typey (8.75)

Showjumping
Strong active (9.3) Good hind leg (9) Good Canter (9.25) Good scope could be little neater in front, good behind (9.5) Scopey (9.25)

Framboyan

Florencio x Welt Hit I. Bay 3 year old stallion - Elite Dressage

Super back little thick in jowl (9.75) Hocks could be cleaner (9) Super walk (9.5) Could be a little more supple in trot and canter (9.25) Great potential (9.5)
Vetting mark put this final marks down, as vet commented he was weak behind and gangly, but would grow into himself (8.1 and 8.6) Which is probably the only comment I would have raised and eye brow to, but in fairness, he only saw him stood, and trot up on an un-level area, down hill!!!!!!!

Most of my horses showed themselves off very well, however, Benita Moon did not do enough canter, so when we did get a canter out of her it was stilted as we had to chase her. Framboyan did not do enough trot for my liking, every time he opened up he jumped back into canter (bless), he did however do some super flying changes which were up hill, balanced and though and a large working canter pirouette on the short side.

I really enjoyed the whole day and felt that the evaluations were performed in a very professional manner, with accurate, constructive comments made on all horses presented.

 

[Halfstep]

Lovely horses. Well done. Your Florencio boy is a stunner. What do they mean by "hocks could be cleaner"?

Spotty botty foal is adorable and looks quite the business.

Congratulations all round.

 

[cruiseline]

What they mean by hocks could be cleaner, is that they could be a little bit more defined, they are a bit fleshy. If I use the word fluidy it would give you the wrong impression, as he does not have fluid in them, but that is basically what they mean. He has big fleshy hock joints.

 

[CrazyMare]

More lovely photos!!

Do like your pony - she wouldn't be the only one not to show much canter, one at HofE didn't fancy cantering much either. Clearly though, what they saw was good as she got a 1st Premium.

 

[Halfstep]

Ahh, I understand. I know exactly what you mean. Nothing wrong with big fleshy hock joints - he's a big boy!

 

[PrincessDana]

Wow congratulations. A very productive day for you. All your horses are beautiful, can i steal Babs?? lol

 

[juliehannah58]

Thanks so much for sharing, very very helpful and so interesting to see pics of the horses with comments made!! I think the main issue with Futurity is that breeders and producers are not 100% certain what they want to see! Having reports like this certainly helps.

Well done on a very successful day!!

 

[cruiseline]

It is helpful for you all to see the horses and the comments made.

If you look at the comments and marks for the filly Gallavant in the dressage evaluation and the showjumping evaluation, you can see just how they were marking for the two disciplines and the different things they were looking for.

She is bred as a showjumper, so it is not surprising her marks for the showjumping were better.

For those of you who have not seen the evaluators sheet these are the sections, with description, what the above marks are for.

Confirmation - head, neck, back and body
Confirmation - Limbs and hooves
Correctness of Paces - walk, trot in hand
Athleticism - Walk, trot and canter when seen loose (plus jumping ability in 3 yo where relevant)
Type and Temperament - Suitability of type and temperament for intended discipline.

 

[toffeesmarty]

What is meant by dry limbs?

 

[volatis]

Your Balou de rouet filly foal is the one I want, she looks so smart. Will she be at the championships? I've always liked the sire and she really has something about her

Lovely to see the commenst up against the photos, thank you for doing that

 

[jaffs]

Super youngsters,
I bet you just want 4 years to go in a flash so you can start competing them!!
Well Done

 

[henryhorn]

Thanks for that, now I realised why I was baffled by some of the comments at the end!
What the heck is dry and clean?
What do they mean, dry limbs?
Why can't they say good or well formed?
I agree re the vetting area, it was a rough old corner of the car park with lots of looses biggish stones and there were much better places than that they could have used.

 

[Zebedee]

Cruiseline, thank you so much for the photo's & also for the marks / comments from your evaluation sheets. I saw your spotty botty foal on the day & he looked gorgeous.

I will say though that some of the comments don't really tie in with the marks, although please note that is not mean to be in any way derogatory to any of your foals, who were all stunning & fully deserved their premiums.

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
What is meant by dry limbs?

[/ QUOTE ]

When they say dry limbs, they mean that the legs are well defined, all the tendons, ligaments and joints are easily seen and the leg is clean. Some youngsters have slightly puffy legs which makes it hard to see the definition. Like the large fleshy hock joints of my 3 year old stallion

but he is a big boy and still growing

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
Your Balou de rouet filly foal is the one I want, she looks so smart. Will she be at the championships? I've always liked the sire and she really has something about her

Lovely to see the commenst up against the photos, thank you for doing that

[/ QUOTE ]

I am really pleased with all the Balou girls, if we have enough transportation, all the ones qualified will go.

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
Cruiseline, thank you so much for the photo's & also for the marks / comments from your evaluation sheets. I saw your spotty botty foal on the day & he looked gorgeous.

I will say though that some of the comments don't really tie in with the marks, although please note that is not mean to be in any way derogatory to any of your foals, who were all stunning & fully deserved their premiums.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't take offence

As a dressage rider I am very use to being commented on.

For example:- Framboyan got a 9.75 for his first confirmation mark with the negative remark of thick in the jowl. This comment was probably made to explain to me why it was not a 10.

Which comment and mark did you find hard to understand and I will see if I can explain it better. Sometimes it is not always clear unless you know the horse and also, they are evaluating for certain disciplines too.

 

[Anastasia]

Cruiseline what an outstanding group of youngsters. You and your daughter must be thrilled with how well they have all done.

It must have taken a long time to get them all ready....

But a very smart looking group of young horses.

 

[Zebedee]

There's nothing I don't understand as such....(well not now that you've explained 'dry limbs' anyway....!!)

I just don't think that the comments & marks always reflect each other. Some of the comments re your foal paces for example were in places quite negative but still scored highly, whereas one of my friends foals got a very positive comment of 'three correct & fluid paces', which was accompanied by a mark of only 7.75.

Without wishing to stir up another hornets nest I feel that this is the type of situation where some people are seeing inconsistencies. I think that it's very important that the comment reflects the mark & vice versa. If we quoted the comment my friends foal got along with some of the remarks you quote & asked people to guess the marks awarded I doubt many would get it right to be honest. (As a dressage rider you will no doubt be aware the the 'comment good, mark 6 ' syndrome, & how irritating riders find it when judges say good, but mark below 8).

In the defence of the evaluators I also know how hard it is to explain exactly what you mean in just a few words in a limited space of both paper & time. However a strong mark should be justified by a positive comment along with some mention of any weaker points, in the same way as a weak one should be justified by a brief explanation of the negative aspects, with hopefully some positive feedback as well.

(As I'm at work it's taken me about an hour to compose this in between phone calls, so I apologise now if it seems disjointed).

Once again though thanks for your pictures etc. I'm sure Anastasia is right when she says you must be thrilled.

 

[cruiseline]

I understand what you are saying and in no way consider you to be stirring up a hornets nest

It is important for a discussion so that people have a chance to try and understand the whole system, which due to the human element of it all, will never be without its floors, you can't please everyone. I have said this before, and will say it again, people have to be more critical about the stock they are breeding. Once they have ripped their own babies to pieces (which I do often) they will understand and accept when someone else makes constructive, negative comments about them. The perfect horse has yet to be born, and I honestly believe it never will as there are so many factors to take into consideration when looking at them.

You are correct, as a dressage rider at international level, I have seen some of the most interesting and controversial remarks written on my test sheets, that seemed to have no relevance to the mark at the side of it. One thing is for sure, the vast majority of remarks made are almost always negative ones. There is neither enough time or space on the sheet to make all the comments needed to truly describe the movement in its entirety. So what judges tend to do is explain, why I didn't get a 8, not why they liked my 7.

With regards to your friends baby, it is impossible to comment on the marks and remarks given without seeing the whole picture. A horse could have nice fluid paces, but not much reach, hock action, lift, power. On the other hand a horse could have a slight irregularity in the sequence of paces (going a bit quicker, slower due to tension etc.) but still have all of the things I have mentioned coming through. It is after all an evaluation for potential long term competition horses, not a showing show.

Sometimes judges and evaluators just like to put something down that is positive, specially if the marks have been on the low side, for what ever reason.

It is the whole picture that is important, not one comment or mark.

The evaluations are a great step forward for British Breeders, but anyone who decides to put their baby forward has to understand that the evaluators do not look at them through rose coloured glasses, they have the score 10 in their heads as excellent and everything else has to stack up under that. If excellent was so easy to achieve then dressage would be a whole lot easier.

 

[Zebedee]

I do see exactly where you're coming from, & of course there is an element of human variation involved in the expressions used.

I tend to use comments which justify the marks given when I judge, & so that if for instance the circle was poor that's what I'm going to say. I use the collective as my opportunity to highlight the positive aspects, whilst still marking to the scheme. I have often been at a loss to explain to pupils why a comment that seems to rave about how wonderful a movement has been has been awarded the proverbial 6. Whilst we are all aware how important it is to be positive & encouraging it shouldn't mean that people are misled.
I know the evaluations aren't dressage, I just wanted to try & convey that I do understand the difficulties involved when being honest is the primary concern, but not wanting to depress people !!

I realise that the evaluators are working to a standard of 10 & excellence. I just think that in certain cases as stated above that they perhaps need to be a little more careful in how things are phrased if people are to understand the ethos behind the futurity. As I said if people were asked to guess the marks from the comments given as examples I doubt many would, & I would have thought that it was in the evaluators best interests to make the comments appropriate to the marks for exhibitors (who don't always understand) to have faith in them & the futurity.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
It is after all an evaluation for potential long term competition horses, not a showing show.

Sometimes judges and evaluators just like to put something down that is positive, specially if the marks have been on the low side, for what ever reason.

It is the whole picture that is important, not one comment or mark.

The evaluations are a great step forward for British Breeders, but anyone who decides to put their baby forward has to understand that the evaluators do not look at them through rose coloured glasses, they have the score 10 in their heads as excellent and everything else has to stack up under that. If excellent was so easy to achieve then dressage would be a whole lot easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you so much for what is probably the best explanation/exposition of the evaluators task, role and mindset in the Futurity. We do try to emphasise that this is the approach we take, but your post -- written from the viewpoint of a participant -- is really on the mark and is one that I hope everyone who has taken part/ will take part in the series * in any role whatsoever * will take to heart as the best advice and guidance they can have.

Thank you again

 

[Zebedee]

Ciss it is indeed a great explanation....but I still think that evaluators have a responsibility to ensure that the marks are reflected accurately in the comments more consistently & vice versa. Making a 'nice' remark to brighten up an otherwise low scoring evaluation just confuses the issues.

One mark does not reflect the overall picture it's true, but a 100% positive remark accompanied by a low(er) mark can (& indeed has) cause upset & confusion for even the more experienced exhibitors.

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
Ciss it is indeed a great explanation....but I still think that evaluators have a responsibility to ensure that the marks are reflected accurately in the comments more consistently & vice versa. Making a 'nice' remark to brighten up an otherwise low scoring evaluation just confuses the issues.

One mark does not reflect the overall picture it's true, but a 100% positive remark accompanied by a low(er) mark can (& indeed has) cause upset & confusion for even the more experienced exhibitors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Positive remarks and a low(er) mark plague the dressage score sheet all over the world, when a judge has seen a rider that is obviously trying their best, but just not getting there, they want to encourage the rider to continue, not discourage them. I understand what you are saying, and I can not even attempt to analyse what was going through the evaluators mind at that point. One thing I find really monotonous about judging is repeating the same comments over and over again, sometimes you search for a different way to say the same thing, and occasionally it does not come out right and can cause confusion, just another way of looking at it. I would have asked the evaluators to explain exactly what they had meant by the mark and the comment, then the confusion is gone.

I really don't think that a debate, such as this and the ones we have over dressage competition scores will ever come to an end, which is not a bad thing. Human opinion is what is being asked for and human opinion is what will be given, be it a good day or a bad day, be it appropriate or inappropriate at the time.

Do you think that if computers were to mark evaluations and dressage competitions, all participants would be happy, I somehow doubt it, due to the fact that a human is on the receiving end and we don't always agree.

 

[Zebedee]

[ QUOTE ]


Do you think that if computers were to mark evaluations and dressage competitions, all participants would be happy, I somehow doubt it, due to the fact that a human is on the receiving end and we don't always agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now to be totally honest I cannot see ANY circumstance whatsoever where ALL competitors in ANY field of competition or assessment would be happy.

(I guess that makes me more than bit cynical - or maybe just realistic

)

 

[librauk]

nice group you have there cruiseline

... good luck at Addington, as to all who qualify

 

[cruiseline]

With probably the exception of the winners, they will always be happy

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
nice group you have there cruiseline

... good luck at Addington, as to all who qualify

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, I can't wait to see which of mine might get through and who I might get to meet for the final.

Good luck to all those still to be evaluated.

 

[Partoow]

The evaluators do use comments that reflect the mark, if they think it is good it will be given a mark of 8-8.9.
In the case of a 7 [fairly good ] the positives are looked for as this all the way through the assesment would have been a second premium.
That is not to say that that animal is a no hoper but it is more likely to be a horse aimed at the national ircuit not international.
The assesors talk this point through at every assesment and with most of the horses that come before them.
Cruisline obviuosly understands totally where they are coming from and the positive comment reflects the positive aspect for that youngster.
Sometimes it is because they want to have a positve thing to say as the presentation was not totally up to scratch or there were quite a few conformation issues that meant showing fluent paces and a good attitude were the fairly good things that were seen.
Slating a horse and giving nothing but negatives as well as low marks does not encourage and the assesors are well aware they are only seeing that horse on that particular day.
There are things that need improvement, no system is perfect ,but this is a step in the right dirrection and on the whole you should be happy that some pretty knowledgeable people give up their time for little or no reward to give you the benifit of their knowledge, even if you dont agree it is a learning process in understanding why you have differing veiws.
perhaps when you have stood there from 8am to 6pm making sure you give everyone the best appraisal that you can then you may just have some more of an idea as to what a pretty good job is actually done .[yes i hear you when you say you judge dressage but so do many of the assesors and they will tell you this is a much more demanding assignment.]
True sometimes it is possible to think that you would have liked to get it better or put it across better but there are only so many hours in a day.
On the whole they system is working and it is giving a lot of feed back to a lot of people that would otherwise be breeding without a great deal of help. It opens lines of discussion and gives people alternative veiws. That can only be a good thing.

 

[Zebedee]

[ QUOTE ]

There are things that need improvement, no system is perfect ,but this is a step in the right dirrection

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% with this statement.

[ QUOTE ]
on the whole you should be happy that some pretty knowledgeable people give up their time for little or no reward to give you the benifit of their knowledge, even if you dont agree it is a learning process in understanding why you have differing veiws.

[/ QUOTE ]

At £50 a go it's not cheap & I'm sure all those involved in the evaluations are suitably reimbursed for any expenses they may have incurred, as well as comfortably accomodated if required!!!

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps when you have stood there from 8am to 6pm making sure you give everyone the best appraisal that you can then you may just have some more of an idea as to what a pretty good job is actually done .(yes i hear you when you say you judge dressage but so do many of the assesors and they will tell you this is a much more demanding assignment.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know I've wondered about that aspect.........as you say this is a far more demanding assignment, yet the numbers being assessed seem to match or even exceed the max numbers that BD recommend judges be asked to judge. It must be very hard for the evaluators to remain focused for such long periods.....sometimes with what would be deemed totally inadequate breaks for anyone undertaking the far less onerous task of judging dressage.

[ QUOTE ]
It opens lines of discussion and gives people alternative veiws. That can only be a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again I can only agree 100%.

 

[Partoow]

The length of time nd breaks , does make it tough but , beings as there are three judges , each with a speciality it helps keep focus as there is lots of discussion and this really does help keep the 'eye on the ball'. All thoose involved realise , 1. the cost of coming and 2. The need to give the 1st person in the arena and the last person in the benift of the best possible appraisal to a set of criteria.
As for being covered for expenses this is one thing , the personal cost of not doing your paid work for the day is another!!! know that is also the case for those taking part but at least you have the chance of 'gaining' from the day.
This is in no way a complaint just fact.
It was in response to the some times tough assesment that the assesors and their opinions are rather worthless and without reasoned thought, this obviously depends on whether you have done well or not.
I think as CISS has said in other threads the results in terms of the likes of Zubin , who has just under gone KWPN keuring and done very well speak for them selves.
I hope in time to come it will get better and we will have a more coherent data base of horses and their career paths and the longevity of those careers.
Having seen a fair few of theses assesments now i am always amased at the influence of bloodlines and how 'type' is expressed , so i hope it will be possible for mare owners to be able to accumulate this and it be something that is used to determine the best stallion for the mare, not just a friend/ local stallion.
For sure there are some lovely mares out there, some of which when you look at the stock have yet to be improved on in the youngstock they are producing .
For everone this is a learning curve, there is an effort to develope the knowlege of those with an interest in the breeding of the Britsh horse and to rationalise it in thought and deed.
We are all, therfore, trying to sing off the same song sheet.