Physical "limitation" vs the end of the road.

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
This is one of my general question topics (it has been pointed out to me recently that I may have lived most of my horsey life in a rarefied world. . .) . . . .

How much/little do you think it's possible/fair to "use" a horse with a known physical issue for limited competition and what do you mean by "limited"?

I commented recently on a horse that was clearly comfortable and capable at 90cm but looked to be struggling at 1m and, in fact, got into trouble. (Older horse, sucessful at a higher level in the past, recently returned from injury.) This did not strike me as odd - I know all sorts of horses in situations like this, leading perfectly happy and productive lives - but the owner was adamant that a) if the horse was comfortable to jump 90s he would jump 1m because horses can't tell what height a jump is (really??) and don't "know" enough to judge if they will be able to clear it comfortably before they leave the ground, and b) if the horse is not okay to jump 1m then he's not okay to jump, period.

Nothing to do with me as they have help and can make their own decisions but upon discussion I found this is not necessarily a rare view. Having spent years managing and working with older horses, great schoolmasters, who had VERY clear ideas on their limitations and also with "problem" horses whose physical issues often allowed them to do one job willingly while they balked strenuously at another, this was a different way of thinking than I'm used to.

Thoughts? Is this something you consider as your horses age, or when buying a new horse? Is it "all or nothing"? Or is it okay to ask a horse what it is capable enough and trust it knows its own body well enough to tell you?
 

charlie76

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 March 2006
Messages
4,665
Visit site
As I said on the other thread, we have a horse that evented with success, it the top three after dressage, and usually placed at novice level with SI pain, kissing spine and suspensory issues, the adrenaline of being a show meant that the issues we had at home with him were not seen. He was so difficult at home, we had a vet to him several time and apart of being difficult there wasn't really any lameness or pain to be seen so for a bit we carried on as the vet thought he was just a difficult horse, in the end, his show jumping got worse so we had all the tests we could thrown at him and the diagnosis was made, we had surgery and treatment on all and although he is much happier, we would never event him to that level again,he now spends his time hacking, jumping small fences, mainly grid work and doing basic flatwork, he is a fab riding club horse. He would still give it a go at the higher level as he loves it but I think he would be broken for good pretty quickly.
 

Nugget La Poneh

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
2,477
Location
Cheshire
Visit site
Surely all competitions/disciplines are limited by the physical limitations of the horse as standard - whether through injury or physical shape/size of the horse?

That aside, as charlie76 has suggested in the example of their horse, there is the good old adrenaline that works wonders for many horses enabling them to deal with far faster/bigger/more challenging events without any outward symptoms that they might not be capable of 'normally'. I know of hunters that would happily clear 1.5m hedges, cars, anything, but couldn't do the same in the arena. Whether that is adrenaline or the different riding style/way of going I don't know.

As for height, horses do know the difference, and 10cm is quite a big hike. Also, at 1m, it's not just the height that is the issue, it's the distance between a jump and the depth of the jump. My 14.3/15hh haffalump can consistently clear a 1m single fence while free-schooled. However, put up a double upright of the same height with one stride between and the second element will nearly always come down. 1m spread will nearly always have the back pole down. However 90cm and he is clearing most things loose. At the moment, 80cm is his limit to guarantee he clears all jumps both loose and under saddle. Would I push him to do a 90cm class, or even a 1m classs? No, why should I - he can't do it! If I wanted to do BS or serious unaffiliated SJ/XC I would've bought a bigger, more scopey jumper.

Horses are not machines, if as a rider, you (I mean the royal you) can't (or more probably won't) listen to the horse and admit that either the discipline is wrong, or the horse is too broken from a previous injury to do what you want then you need to go back to the beginning.
 

Kelpie

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 March 2008
Messages
1,354
Location
Kent
Visit site
good question.....

....... as ever, I guess it depends...... if an older horse is, for example, arthritic but still enjoys going out and having some fun, then I'd say why not, so long as the horse is enjoying it, and anyway movement is generally good for arthritis. There are also some physical issues that are helped by keeping a certain fitness level.

However, I greatly fear that many of us would think we are listening to our horses when really we aren't.... so how do we ever really know that what we are asking them to do is within their limitations? Don't get me wrong, if you really do know the horse well and are sensitive to it, it can be done, I'm sure but it's not always that easy - especially when the horse's adrenaline comes into play (e.g. is a horse OK hunting because he can choose his line and his way of going or is he OK because of the adrenaline - and that's not at all pointed at you at all charlie76....... I know various people who have "retired" their horse to hunting and some I think fair enough, some I would questions....)

Funnily enough, I have to face this issue with my 5yo that has PSD..... even if she does come "sound" - if I try and work her again will I break her again? So does that mean I shouldn't try and work her? Maybe you just don't know where the line is until you cross it but that's not very fair, is it? I am fortunate enough to have my own land so I don't have to make a use it or lose it choice but these questions still weigh heavily on me and I haven't yet figured out the answer...... I'll see if I can get her back sound first and then try and figure the rest out :(
 

Oscar

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 January 2005
Messages
998
Location
Over the Rainbow
Visit site
I would say most horses try and be as conservative with their energy/effort as possible, as this is a natural in built predisposition to equines to conserve energy a) to store fat reserves & b) to have enough in the tank to outrun the predator.

So I think all horses need to be pushed out of their comfort zone to see if they have that extra 'something' or can run that bit faster, jump that bit higher etc. But if after lessons & training etc and your horse is happy to bimble round a 90cm course but struggles any higher then I think you have to decide if it's the horse for you if your ambitions are greater than the horse is capable of. And I think we have to appreciate that while an older schoolmaster still has a lot to teach its riders they are not always as exuberant & flamboyant as they once were, their are mechanically less agile and take a little longer to warm up.

I used to be able to do gymnastics, vault on my horses bareback in the field and bend my body in all sorts of ways, now I am just grateful I can still put my socks on without an ibuprofen!!
 

stencilface

High upon a hillside
Joined
28 February 2008
Messages
21,079
Location
Leeds
Visit site
Kelpie - mine recovered from PSD, then threw tenosynovitis and tendonitis at me (all different legs!) and each time between I brought him back into work, even managed a month of jumping before the last injury hit. With mine I'm taking the approach of removing his shoes to see if that helps with whatever is going on! So I'll bring him back to doing whatever he is happy doing. Luckily like you we also have our own land.

I know of lots of horses that are managed to within an inch of their life, and are competed at high levels with issues that would be ridden career bar hacking, ending for me as its just not fair. Adrenaline does have a lot to answer for though, it's embarrassing when you box a dog lame pony to the specialist vets only to have him stride out and pass very test you throw at him!
 

oldvic

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2008
Messages
1,652
Visit site
I wish I could jump as high and run as fast as when I was a teenager!! Does this mean I should never run or jump again?!
Seriously though, it is one thing pushing the boundaries with a younger horse but once they are getting older surely they deserve to stay within what they feel they can do? If they have given a lifetime of good service then they should be allowed to enjoy an easier life without being pushed too hard. They don't know whether it is 90 or 100 cms but they do know if it is going to hurt or they haven't the push to achieve it.
 

skint1

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 February 2010
Messages
5,309
Visit site
I'm not a competition rider so you must excuse the intrusion but this is a topic I have given thought to wrt my own horses.

In balance, I would rather not push my older horses to their limits, I would rather they felt happy and good and able to achieve what was asked of them with some to spare if that makes sense. I imagine it is difficult though to figure out exactly what is "enough" for them.
 

Gamebird

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 April 2007
Messages
8,345
Visit site
I think I may be responsible for TS's first comment... Sorry! ;)

As I said on the other thread, we have a horse that evented with success, it the top three after dressage, and usually placed at novice level with SI pain, kissing spine and suspensory issues, the adrenaline of being a show meant that the issues we had at home with him were not seen. He was so difficult at home, we had a vet to him several time and apart of being difficult there wasn't really any lameness or pain to be seen so for a bit we carried on as the vet thought he was just a difficult horse, in the end, his show jumping got worse so we had all the tests we could thrown at him and the diagnosis was made, we had surgery and treatment on all and although he is much happier, we would never event him to that level again,he now spends his time hacking, jumping small fences, mainly grid work and doing basic flatwork, he is a fab riding club horse. He would still give it a go at the higher level as he loves it but I think he would be broken for good pretty quickly.

I had a horse with the same triumvirate of problems. Had two out of the three operated on and he was much happier, but lacked his previous scope (and indeed his own confidence in his scope). We found the ideal solution for him. I wasn't keen to sell him as I felt that his jumping abilities might be abused by someone who didn't understand his limitations, however he has gone to a friend to field-master. It's not a big 6ft hedge-jumping pack, more the 3ft rails and a few big ditches sort. He's loving it, he's very good at it and is endlessly complimented by people out hunting. I'm happy because I know no-one's trying to push him round a foxhunter track and having him land on the back bars and start stopping. Although he has his physical limitations he is with someone who respects them and doesn't ask anything of him that he can't manage.
 

tabithakat64

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 October 2006
Messages
5,942
Location
Herts, UK
Visit site
My 16 year old Welsh Cob is physically limited following veterinary advice as he had a very severe hind tendon injury over the fetlock joint.

He is 100% sound and I want to keep him that way which is why his workload is limited mainly to light schooling on a decent surface and slow hacking as long as I'm sensible about ground conditions.

He was rehabbed then spent 18 months out at grass before being brought back into work. So far we have done an hours le Trec competition, we missed out one of tasks though due to deep ground, some in-hand showing and intro dressage.

When looking for a new horse I would want something with the potential to compete at the level I'm aiming for and would be very reluctant to consider anything that already had physical limitations.
 

Orangehorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 November 2005
Messages
13,245
Visit site
I would say that a horse can measure to a cm what height and width it is happy to jump, whether that is because of courage or physical limitation, only the horse knows.

Many older competition horses, show jumpers and even hunters are found a home where they won't be pushed too hard, that they can do things that they are happy to do but they aren't going to be asked to extend themselves to the point of exhaustion. As an earlier poster said, I can't run and jump like I could as a teenager, but I can continue to do things at a slower pace.
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
Interesting guys, thanks. (Although some of you also lead rarified lives! ;))

I think Gamebird hit on an important point for me - the idea of horses being cherished and admired in their job. Many of the 'downgraded' horses and schoolmasters I've known were HEROES. They were hugely important to the people who owned and rode them without out ever being significantly stressed and went for years like that, with all their needs met. I loved watching my own old horse do that job! And he brought so much to so many people's lives. He's been dead half a dozen years and still has a fan club. That would not have happened if I'd kept pushing him for my own ends and broken him permanently.

I'm not sure I agree that horses are always looking to get out of work. If they weren't naturally compliant then we'd all be dead and I believe most physically able, properly produced horses will give things a go if it's within their ability (which I think is quite easy to judge if one is objective) and if they don't, they are not suited to the task.

On the subject of heights, I ran a school full of mostly retired competition horses. We limited the heights they jumped and I can tell you, they knew their lesson limitations to the inch. Many of them would cheerfully jump higher with more experienced riders from time to time but they could not make up for any mistakes at that level so we kept them within their comfort zone. Just because they would in the short term, didn't mean they could in the long term.
 

khalswitz

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 May 2012
Messages
3,507
Location
NE Scotland
Visit site
Interesting guys, thanks. (Although some of you also lead rarified lives! ;))

I think Gamebird hit on an important point for me - the idea of horses being cherished and admired in their job. Many of the 'downgraded' horses and schoolmasters I've known were HEROES. They were hugely important to the people who owned and rode them without out ever being significantly stressed and went for years like that, with all their needs met. I loved watching my own old horse do that job! And he brought so much to so many people's lives. He's been dead half a dozen years and still has a fan club. That would not have happened if I'd kept pushing him for my own ends and broken him permanently.

I'm not sure I agree that horses are always looking to get out of work. If they weren't naturally compliant then we'd all be dead and I believe most physically able, properly produced horses will give things a go if it's within their ability (which I think is quite easy to judge if one is objective) and if they don't, they are not suited to the task.

On the subject of heights, I ran a school full of mostly retired competition horses. We limited the heights they jumped and I can tell you, they knew their lesson limitations to the inch. Many of them would cheerfully jump higher with more experienced riders from time to time but they could not make up for any mistakes at that level so we kept them within their comfort zone. Just because they would in the short term, didn't mean they could in the long term.

I've known so many ponies through Pony Club that had a height limit. One particularly example was a cracker, real push button little pony who looked after his rider and was a star particularly for the nervous kids. But try and jump him over 70cm and he would refuse, push him and he would rear. Was sold for being 'dangerous' because one child had outgrown his limits but couldn't let go and move onto another horse. My friend bought him, to the horror of the PC, and he was an angel for her small, nervous child. Child was moved off him once she was winning at 70cm and feeling confident and happy.

Was he no use as a Pony Club pony/low level first competition pony because of his limits? No. Within his limits, you could trust him completely, and he always had a flurry of red ribbons.

My last horse was similar. He was a schoolmaster, and was brilliant on the flat. Jumping, however, he didn't have much talent for. You could feel him struggling at 3ft 3 - he found getting in close and giving a decent bascule very difficult. However, I had had a few nasty accidents jumping when younger, and he got me jumping again - including cross country at 80cm, which I never thought I'd do again. I got my confidence back because he just didn't stop - he could rush, he jumped big, he often took off a stride before he should have - but he would never refuse. Worst he ever did was run out, and you knew it about ten strides before the jump. He wasn't a jumper at all, but at those small heights he gave me my confidence and we competed quite happily unaffiliated, with plans to do BE80's until the very unfortunate accident which led to his death.

And obviously all those older horses who have jumped 1.20s, 1.30s, can't jump the height they used to but are absolutely spot on for jumping 90cm-1.10m, doing riding club level/grassroots level BE/low BS. At that level they are like you said TS absolute heroes, that teach riders moving up to those levels how things are done properly. Not always easy rides, but can do it.

I think nowadays we put too much on horses being talented to be honest. How many of us really need a horse than can jump BE IN, or BS Fox, or do Inter 1 dressage? Most riders will never reach that. So having a horse that is limited by how far it can go shouldn't be as much of an issue as it is. Even those that are limited to very low level competition could be doing a great job building someone's confidence up, particularly with the number of beginner adults we have now, and I don't think we should knock those horses.
 

Laafet

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 June 2006
Messages
4,592
Location
Suffolk
adventuresinblackandwhite.co.uk
Have not read all the replies but my reply to OP - My own horse has is limitations due to his leg problems, he has had surgery but since we have been back in work it has become clear anything above Prelim level dressage is too much for him, he can do all the moves but cannot cope with the training necessary. I dearly wanted to get my BD record and points all together and he can do it, but I am not prepared to crucify him to get a year or two of good results and points but then end up with a glorified lawnmower or worse. So I am now aiming at his level, qualifying for Prelim regionals or Petplan areas with the odd Novice/Elementary to keep my hand in. I can only afford/have time for one horse at a time so I have to deal with what I have. He also jumps very well but am wary of over-jumping him as that might also shorten his career. I am soft but he is all I have and after all he has given to me, I think I should do all I can for him. If I was looking at a new horse then I would not take on something that I didn't believe would take me to where I wanted, in this case it happened after I had him.
 

HayleyUK

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 July 2005
Messages
1,528
Location
Cheshire
Visit site
My childhood RC superstar pony is limited - she's 20, smart and stuck in her way but suffers with arthritis.

She won't jump 3ft plus and be competitive anymore, nor is she hugely interested in dressage but she is amazing at giving little ones confidence in the arena, nannying my youngster and loves a pop round a 70/80cm course.

I'd never push her for more than she offers, she just doesn't deserve it. We work and manage her around her limits.
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
Just to add to the comments about appropriate level/job, I think it's also the case - as with c76's horse - that what the horse funds 'easy' is relative.

One of the smartest/funniest things I've ever seen a horse do was in the Derby at Spruce Meadows. He'd been a decent GP horse but a bit slow and would have the rail. But he came into his own as a GP schoolmaster (we should all be so lucky!!) and was being ridden by a pro's 18 yr old daughter. She came around a turn with not quite enough canter and kicked to a huge vertical into a long combination with a big square oxer in the middle. He looked down the line and went, 'Uh, no!' and ground to a halt about 2 strides out. She gave him a token kick - he was huge, she was tiny, I doubt he even noticed - turned him around for a proper approach and he popped on through. I suspect they had rails, too, but he kept jumping and kept her out of trouble so long as she didn't get silly with her demands. :)

I guess what interested me about the horse I mentioned was he had a dodgy moment or two at the lower height and then clearly struggled across the oxers - you could see it in his face and the way he jumped - but everyone seemed surprised when he finally landed on a back rail and really scared/hurt himself. Maybe he'd always been fine at that level though, and it came as a surprise on the day.
 

Kelpie

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 March 2008
Messages
1,354
Location
Kent
Visit site
Kelpie - mine recovered from PSD, then threw tenosynovitis and tendonitis at me (all different legs!) and each time between I brought him back into work, even managed a month of jumping before the last injury hit. With mine I'm taking the approach of removing his shoes to see if that helps with whatever is going on! So I'll bring him back to doing whatever he is happy doing. Luckily like you we also have our own land.

I know of lots of horses that are managed to within an inch of their life, and are competed at high levels with issues that would be ridden career bar hacking, ending for me as its just not fair. Adrenaline does have a lot to answer for though, it's embarrassing when you box a dog lame pony to the specialist vets only to have him stride out and pass very test you throw at him!

Oh, no, you poor thing - to recover from PSD and then more problems :( I do hope you get to the bottom of it (though funnily enough my girl is barefoot anyway - tho am having a change of farrier/ trim to see if it helps.....).
 

dafthoss

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 October 2010
Messages
4,808
Visit site
Its very common in small old ponies so why not in bigger horses? There's plenty of them out there adored for what they do and never being asked to do any thing they are not happy or comfortable to do but having a great time doing what they love at a level they find easy. As long as the person responsible for them is understanding of the limits and the signs they may need to step down a level again then it can work very well.

Limited can mean many things, even in healthy horses, mine is limited by his type and his brain, there are things he will never be asked to do but there's no reason he cant do things to a certain level. The level he is asked to compete at will is also different to what he is asked at home. I don't see the issue at all with competing within the horses abilities and trusting a horse to know its limits young or old.
 

Jnhuk

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 April 2010
Messages
2,526
Location
Midlothian/Borders
Visit site
Interesting thread.

Now I am musing if horses are like humans when they get older, their brains are saying "we can do this" but their bodies cannot and then get in trouble?
 

LEC

Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Joined
22 July 2005
Messages
10,913
www.youtube.com
I had one who was limited due to hocks and so I sold him. Has a wonderful life with someone happy to do things at the level he wants. I refuse to change my ambitions so make sure I get the horse into the best possible home for them. I always aim to produce useful citizens so if no good for me will always suit someone else.
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
Interesting thread.

Now I am musing if horses are like humans when they get older, their brains are saying "we can do this" but their bodies cannot and then get in trouble?

I've seen versions of that happen, although usually in the moment, say in a race, when adrenalin or instinct cancels out self-preservation. Over all, though, I think horses, as herbivores and lacking emotional involvement, are not driven to achieve in the way that people are. I think they are much more aware of their bodies and their limits than we are (and that we often give them credit for).
 

spookypony

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 November 2008
Messages
7,339
Location
Austria
Visit site
If your horse can't do the job you want, you can change the horse, or you can change the job.

I've seen lots of older school horses that were very good jumpers or on the flat in their time, and that are worth their weight in gold for the sensible head they have on them now, even if they need a particularly sympathetic warmup to be able to canter a 15 circle, or shouldn't be asked to jump anything larger than 80cm. If there's someone looking out for their best interests, making sure they stay inside their comfort zone and have whatever R&R is needed, then I don't see the problem. I think it's like with people that have arthritis or similar: I think they're generally recommended to stay as active as possible, along the "use it or lose it" principle.
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
I guess the 'older schoolmaster' thing is quite easy though. . .the question comes with a younger horse people feel 'should' be able to do more and that does not have an obvious malady. Maybe it's really a question about how long you persist and how hard you ask before accepting a horse might know its own limits.
 

Jo_x

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 April 2008
Messages
830
Visit site
the owner was adamant that a) if the horse was comfortable to jump 90s he would jump 1m because horses can't tell what height a jump is (really??) and don't "know" enough to judge if they will be able to clear it comfortably before they leave the ground, and b) if the horse is not okay to jump 1m then he's not okay to jump, period.

That (to me) sounds like an utterly bonkers argument. Why is the line drawn at 1m. By that logic, if a horse can jump 1m, it can jump 1m10. if it can jump 1m10, it can jump 1m20. etc etc. Clearly not all horses are capable of jumping clear round 1m60 tracks, so should they not jump at all? What a ridiculous idea.
 

oldvic

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2008
Messages
1,652
Visit site
The younger horse is an interesting one and maybe, in a way, a more difficult one. With the older horse it should be easier to accept that his body is slowing up and becoming less supple so it is time to back off. With the younger horse there is always the possibility that training and maturity might improve things. When to cut ones losses can be very hard. This is where horsemanship and trust comes in. Realising that a horse would be better in a less ambitious situation or working at the same level but in a less competitive way so he is under less pressure (going slower and having less exacting expectations) can be difficult. Equally there are a few that consistently produce results well above their ability due to a very talented rider who can instill trust and self belief into the horse. It is because of these few that others are perhaps pushed for too long without being able to make the step up.
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
That (to me) sounds like an utterly bonkers argument. Why is the line drawn at 1m. By that logic, if a horse can jump 1m, it can jump 1m10. if it can jump 1m10, it can jump 1m20. etc etc. Clearly not all horses are capable of jumping clear round 1m60 tracks, so should they not jump at all? What a ridiculous idea.

I agree with you. To be fair, though, I think their reasoning in this case is that the horse could jump higher before his injury (although I don't think he competed any higher) and can now jump higher at home in lessons, and the rider can and has jumped bigger classes so, as a combination *should* be okay at 1m. My observation was based on how the horse LOOKED jumping 1m and the "feel" I got of the situation. They may indeed be right and I may very well see the horse jumping comfortably at 1m next week. But on the day, he struggled long before he ended up in the middle of the oxen and, yes, I was just surprised at the reasoning.
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
The younger horse is an interesting one and maybe, in a way, a more difficult one. With the older horse it should be easier to accept that his body is slowing up and becoming less supple so it is time to back off. With the younger horse there is always the possibility that training and maturity might improve things. When to cut ones losses can be very hard. This is where horsemanship and trust comes in. Realising that a horse would be better in a less ambitious situation or working at the same level but in a less competitive way so he is under less pressure (going slower and having less exacting expectations) can be difficult. Equally there are a few that consistently produce results well above their ability due to a very talented rider who can instill trust and self belief into the horse. It is because of these few that others are perhaps pushed for too long without being able to make the step up.

Very insightful comments. I guess that was what bothered me - the horse was trying very hard and struggling. It was more their surprise at the outcome that surprised me in my turn. I think it was complicated by the fact that the horse does very well at the lower height - "if he is winning at 90 he should be able to do 1m".
 

oldvic

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2008
Messages
1,652
Visit site
Very insightful comments. I guess that was what bothered me - the horse was trying very hard and struggling. It was more their surprise at the outcome that surprised me in my turn. I think it was complicated by the fact that the horse does very well at the lower height - "if he is winning at 90 he should be able to do 1m".

A classic example of this was Noble Springbok who was supreme at pony/novice level. He had plenty of jump and looked like he found it very easy. He was then stepped up to junior/ intermediate level and couldn't cope at all. He was moved back down and again was superb with a less experienced rider. Within his range he was very hard to beat but was found out at a level higher. Equally I know another horse who is not a natural jumper and with a lesser rider would look like 2* was his absolute limit. However he has "learnt" to be a competitive 4* horse through trust in an exceptional rider and a very generous nature. Horses like him are the exception and in most cases it it probably worth staying closer to the comfort zone.
 
Last edited:

Gamebird

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 April 2007
Messages
8,345
Visit site
A classic example of this was Noble Springbok who was supreme at pony/novice level. He had plenty of jump and looked like he found it very easy. He was then stepped up to junior/ intermediate level and couldn't cope at all. He was moved back down and again was superb with a less experienced rider. Within his range he was very hard to beat but was found out at a level higher. Equally I know another horse who is not a natural jumper and with a lesser rider would look like 2* was his absolute limit. However he has "learnt" to be a competitive 4* horse through trust in an exceptional rider and a very generous nature. Horses like him are the exception and in most cases it it probably worth staying closer to the comfort zone.

Yes, exactly. Another of my ex-horses is very competitive at Nov and 1* level and still fairly young. His experienced pro-jockey says that every time out people ask her when he's going intermediate. She can't put her finger on why but has a feeling that the horse won't be comfortable at that level. Luckily the owner's happy that the horse does well without badgering the pro to step it up. Will she have a go at Int? Probably in time, but more as a fishing experience than a one-way step up and if she feel the horse is out of its depth, even if to onlookers the outing seems successful, it will be an experiment that isn't repeated.
 

TPO

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 November 2008
Messages
9,414
Location
Kinross
Visit site
As usual I think I've got the wrong end of the stick but I won't let that stop me rambling on :)

Based on the OP's case study I think anyone with an ounce of moral fibre knows that this rider is in the wrong. Their competitive wants are being placed above this horse's welfare. The OP has voiced their concern (& I would do just about anything based on a feel OP got from any of mine) and been shot down. If I read correctly the rider in question has a trainer/ gets lessons/ attends clinics so I'm presuming that there are others on board with her decision. I think what she should do is fairly obvious but I don't imagine there are many other ways to explain this to her so ignorance and/or her want rules...

How I read the OP(ost) was should we medicate horses to keep them going. Perhaps because it was a discussion I was in the middle of at the time and/or because it might be something I'm faced with in the not too distant future.

I've had it engrained in me, practically from birth, that you don't medicate to keep a horse going at it's current level. You down grade to a level of work it is comfortable with, whether in current home or another more suitable home, and if a level of comfort can't be found then the poor animal must be in an unfair level of discomfort so pts for their benefit.

I realise it's a sketchy pov as, in my head, it applies to medicating joints but not other things that require medical intervention like colic :/

I also realise that many horses are medicated and as such have an improved quality of life and/or can continue at a level that meets the owner/ riders wants and uses. I'm aware its a ' normal' maintenance/ management occurrence for many, many horses of differing ages and levels but personally I just ( currently) struggle to get my head around the ethics of it. I'm in no way saying anything is right or wrong, black or white, etc

That's just what I took the OP's post to be asking and with a rare day off work and resulting extra 3 hrs in bed I'd nothing better to do than gut spill :)
 
Top