Physio says 1 thing, vet says the other??

[Chocy]

So decided 2 have physio give horse the once over & nice massage etc before his jumping saddle returned (long saga 7 adjustments in 8mths, horse not happy with it so getting flaired)
Anyway I assumed physio would say-hes tight in shoulders/withers work on him & problem solved but no she feels his sacroiliac (sp?) area underdeveloped/sore/tight & needed ultrasound etc 2 sort
So get vet out 4 a look incase I wanted 2 put thro insurance & basically she's saying doesn't c any problems- not lame, he's level, no muscle spasms etc etc & disagrees with physio
Vet felt was more a schooling issue as he's youngish (6) leans on left rein & not hugely keen 2 bend(!) All things I work on with instructor
Now I'm stuck with what 2 do cos I no saddle made him sore somewhere- he kicks up with back leg when putting other saddle on him (it def isn't a problem) & blows out when doing girth- not normal for him
Any suggestions? I have said 2 physio 2 start treatment as I no hes not right but just a bit stuck

Sorry its so long!

 

[wench]

If the saddle is not right then you need one that fits. You could try thermal imaging.

 

[robthecob]

Hmm tricky one, I personally trust my physio over my vet on the subtletys, I find my physio is better at looking at the whole picture rather than looking for something specific. I have had the same physio for years though and she is amazing.

I think if you know your horse isn't right then there has to be a problem and your physio is probably best placed to find it. Soreness could be referred pain from elsewhere, legs? Back? Or it could of been something as simple as a sliding stop in the field. If it is SI pain you want to get it sorted now though as it can cause huge problems in the future (I know from experience) not sure ultra sound would do much though, is he evenly muscled over the quarters? Does he walk straight behind?

If he was mine I would start some treatment with my physio, I would only ride in straight lines and I would lunge in walk and trot over poles and raised poles to try and stabilise the area.

there is lots of info on SI stuff on here

 

[ArcticFox]

Is your physio an ACPAT? what qualifications do they have?

Does your vet just do equine?

 

[Chocy]

Doesn't seem 2 b deferred pain- flexion test fine, happy 4 back 2 b poked/proded all over, no lameness at all
Honestly I wouldn't say he in pain as such more uncomfortable
Physio said:- hips/pelvis were unlevel (vet agrees but only v slightly), walks base wide behind with slight 'swing' to left leg (vet disagrees), loss of topline & lack of muscle behind (vet disagreed & for me I'm not sure its ever been there 2 loose!)

Physio is not a chartered physio but well qualified & registered with physio bodys. Also well liked/respected was recommended by instructor & used by a lot of people i've spoken too. & yes was an equine vet who spent an hour with him the other day
Hard as I felt he just needed massage/loosened off after saddle not being right- and any schooling issues i've put down 2 the saddle but now ?????

 

[flyingfeet]

Sorry but I don't believe in horse physios. It's in there interest to find something so they get repeat business

That said I do know a good one, but she is busy enough to say they are fine and she doesn't need to come back!

 

[popsdosh]

go with the vet as they spent all those years qualifying and the physio has not.I am afraid it is one of my pet hates non qualified physios and also they should be working with the Vet and not seperate.Does sound odd to me ultrasound for SI if underdeveloped as that is a work issue with the correct excersises.Ultrasound will not develop muscle.

 

[flyingfeet]

Argh cannot edit on a phone - their not there...

 

[WellyBaggins]

I agree with Robthecob on this one, I trust my Physio with that sort of thing but he is ACPAT and knows my horse very well, has been treating him for years. In your case it would depend, has the vet seen the horse before? What does your trainer think?

 

[popsdosh]

Sorry but I don't believe in horse physios. It's in there interest to find something so they get repeat business

That said I do know a good one, but she is busy enough to say they are fine and she doesn't need to come back!

Second this if you had a chartered one they would have talked to your vet first out of courtesy .
On the question of the saddle if it has needed to be refitted so much it is the wrong saddle.Get a new one were the Tree suits the horse in question.

 

[Bantry]

Can you get a second opinion? If it is a sacroiliac problem it'll need careful treatment, definately not something you want missed on a misdiagnosis. Here's a link to an intesting article on SI's

http://www.spinalvet.com.au/downloads/sacro-iliac.pdf

 

[Coblover63]

Sorry but I don't believe in horse physios. It's in there interest to find something so they get repeat business

That said I do know a good one, but she is busy enough to say they are fine and she doesn't need to come back!

I don't agree with your first sentence. My horse physio is ACPAT and gave my boy a clean bill of health. That said, if all continues to be well with him, I will still have her out for an annual assessment as he can't tell me if he's sore anywhere. Like humans, you'd be hard-pressed to find an anatomically perfect horse and with all the exercises and challenges we ask of them, why shouldn't they have their tweaks and ouchies treated?

 

[YasandCrystal]

Kicking out behind is a common trait with problems with the SI in my experience. My horse does it to release ligament tension in the area - he has chronic SI dysfunction.

 

[Chocy]

Thanks folks

Vet has said in her opinion is no SI probs- yes stiff, weaker 1 side etc but work should sort it
But I feel if he kicks out outting saddle on there is a prob somewhere just where being the million dollar qu!

Re: saddle. On paper it fits looks gr8, sits levels in all paces, 2 saddle fitters agree on that but it drops in his withers within a few rides (even when been adjusted) hence y its being flaired 2 c if that helps.

 

[Skippys Mum]

I'll just send a get well soon for him - his buddy is waiting patiently for the next party
xx

 

[YasandCrystal]

Thanks folks

Vet has said in her opinion is no SI probs- yes stiff, weaker 1 side etc but work should sort it
But I feel if he kicks out outting saddle on there is a prob somewhere just where being the million dollar qu!

SI injuries/problems are one of the hardest ones to diagnose. If your horse is siff and weaker on one side there has to be a reason. It took a week for mine to be be diagnosed by Sue Dyson at her lameness clinic and she is a world leading expert.
My physio could tell my boy was not using himself evenly by the measurements she took of his muscles. There were hige differences in the hind muscle sets from one side to the other and after rehab and being worked in a pessoa those differences changed again significantly. He gained 4cm of gluteus muscle on his poor side in a 6 week period.
He had a further 18 months off and he is now starting light ridden work and he is a happy horse. We are taking it slowly, I don't want him to break again.

FWIW I got my boy diagnosed 'alternatively' before the Sue Dyson clinic. We had an iridology report completed, a shiatsu session and a communication and all 3 said that he had a problem (iridology couldn't tell if the problem was current and affecting him then) on his right side upper hind. He even told the communicator he found ridden work too difficult. The shiatsu therapist was in tears with his pain as soon as she laid a hand on him.
My vet referred him to Newmarket and I got LOU on my horse.

 

[christine48]

I'd go by what the vet says. You could end up having numerous investigations, finding nothing wrong and everything excluded on your insurance.

 

[Jesstickle]

How good is your vet?

I trust my vets but that's easy for me as I happen to have very good ones (Rossdales) so I know they are experts. Before that I had top notch vets at Cambridge vet school who also really knew their stuff and really knew my horses inside out to boot.

I also use the ACPAT physio they recommend so I trust her too Both practises suggested her infact. But she wouldn't dream of looking at my horse without speaking to the vet first and I wouldn't dream of letting an unqualified anyone treat my horse, never mind tell my vet they knew best. So far they've managed to see eye to eye over both my horses. Don't know quite what I'd do if they strongly disagreed

 

[Lulup]

What area of the country are you in - I have recently discovered a vet turned chiropractor and rolling the two into one is proving to be a very successful mix for my horses, one of whom has similar issues to yours with the kicking out under saddle.

 

[Chocy]

I'm in Scotland so suggestions welcome! I do trust vet & she was certainly thorough & no if she'd found anything it would hav bn investigated.

Yasandcrystal- was it something bout how ure horse went that led u investigate or was it picked up at regular physio session?

Was thinking once physio treatment underway 2 start lungeing in equi-ami (seem 2 b more favoured than pessoa cos don't jerk on mouth but thots any1 pls?) He could prob do with this anyway 2 try help his topline even if I go with vets verdict of no SI problem.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I'm in Scotland so suggestions welcome! I do trust vet & she was certainly thorough & no if she'd found anything it would hav bn investigated.

Yasandcrystal- was it something bout how ure horse went that led u investigate or was it picked up at regular physio session?

Was thinking once physio treatment underway 2 start lungeing in equi-ami (seem 2 b more favoured than pessoa cos don't jerk on mouth but thots any1 pls?) He could prob do with this anyway 2 try help his topline even if I go with vets verdict of no SI problem.

My horse's behaviour deteriorated. He became more and more aggressive and dangerous. Biting and striking, rearing and kicking being handled (no joke with a 17hh) - more so being saddled. In the end he bucked over his ears 4 times with my daughter riding (she stayed on but had almost whiplash like injuries). A back worker had commented on extreme tightness over his loins and on his left shoulder - he expressed surprise that he let himself be ridden (I was not present so unfortunately missed the depth of this message). My vet agreed to refer him to Newmarket. He actually had to be doped to be ridden - he was that sensitive and worried by this stage and obviously in chronic pain.
I think the signs of an SI problem can be as small as finding right hand canter difficult - bunny hopping behind, bucking, plaiting behind, kicking out behind, unwillingness to engage behind.
My horse was at first scoped for ulcers, but he only had 2 low grade ones and we knew then that these had to be symptomatic of something more serious - as his extreme behaviour could not have been caused by these.
Personally if you could I would seek out an holistic vet. I used one to rehab Tim - she 'mobilised' Tim's sacrum (she is an osteopath too) twice and made an amazing difference to him.

 

[Batgirl]

Just to point out that a registered equine physiotherapist will have had 3 or 4 years of training in human physiotherapy (basic principles transferable) plus have had to practice as a registered Chartered Physiotherapist for 4 years, then taken Equine physiotherapy training alongside practice. It takes years to become a fully registered proper Equine Physiotherapist. It is a protected term and is sully by general equine 'therapists' who do not have to go through the training. If your therapist is not registered or chartered then they are NOT a Physiotherapist.

If they are then I would trust their word over most vets on physical movement and muscle issues. Just as I don't trust my doctor on similar things for me, they are specialists for a reason. That is not to say there aren't excellent vets out there but they are general practitioners most of the time (few exceptions with masters etc).

 

[Stroppy Mare]

I'd get a registered ACPAT Physio out. These are indeed more qualified than a vet as do a 3 year BSc in humans, 2 (soon to be 3 year rotations as a human Physio) before doing a 2 year MSc in Animal Physio.

I have an ACPAT Physio out and I'd trust her over my vets - vets have a wide knowledge base, but on a MSK front, a Physio will have a better knowledge due to their speciality.

Think of it like doctors - your vet is similar to a junior doctor - expected to deal with anything and everything, your consultant is a specialist - your ACPAT Physio in this case, they're experienced in their region.

If your back person is not ACPAT registered then they are not a Physio. The CSP have protected the term 'physiotherapist'. I'm aware that animal Physios sit slightly different as you can indeed become an equine 'physio' by doing the course in which you don't need to do humans first, however I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.