picture challenge.....overbent vs correct....Dressage 101 for amateurs

[4whitesocks]

OK another post got me thinking about what is overbent & what's a 'correct' outline....

my boy is very compact, relatively short neck, when he goes into what I perceive to be a good outline I am pretty sure the poll is the highest point but it still feels like his head and neck are pretty low, he feels like he is much lighter in my hands and the pace is much smoother & 'floatier' (god how crap am I at describing things!) - I can sit comfortably to his trot & the whole experience is much smoother.....BUT (being the paranoid freak that I am!) how would I know if he is 'overbent'???
anyone got any pics to demonstrate both? Or can you explain how a horse feels under you if they are overbent....

 

[clipclop]

I was always led to believe that over bent is when the horses head tilts behind the vertical.

 

[jesterfaerie]

Same here Bonza.

 

[4whitesocks]

OK yes that's what I understand it to be too - but not being on the ground and being able to see exactly what the angle of his head is how should I be able to tell from up top...or am I being completely dim?

 

[Jemayni]

When a horses heads is in the correct position you can feel it pushing forward into your rien contact. When it drops behind, the contact disapeers.... something like that anyway....

 

[clipclop]

Hmmm. Well my horse goes behind the vertical a bit and I have to have regular lessons. I am developing a feel for what is correct now.

Without the lessons I think I would need to stick mirrors up everywhere.

My boy tends to go behind the vertical when he isn't working through from behind. When I get that engine behind me powering away then the front end just does what it is supposed to do.

Do you have lessons? Do you have a knowledgeable friend who could help?

 

[Nailed]

Correct.. Light.. self carridge

Over bent, this is overbent to the extreme to demonstrate.

The feelings you described int he first one see to line up correctly with self carridge.
Lou x

 

[Tierra]

Best thing is to get some piccies taken of you riding so you can see whats going on really

A correct outline sees the poll at the highest point with the nose on the vertical. You then have above the bit when the neck almost inverts and the head raises too high - those nose is usually ahead of the vertical at this point. Behind the bit is when the nose is dropping back behind the vertical and the outline breaks along the neck rather than at the poll...

Behind:-

A rather exaggerated above tbh... :-

Correct:-

As for how it feels... yes the horse should work into a contact but also remember that you'll often see a complete give and retake of the reins done in classical dressage to "test" the level of self carriage. So the horse much be able to maintain this - hence the contact should feel absolutly super light.

 

[dwi]

[ QUOTE ]


A rather exaggerated above tbh... :-

[/ QUOTE ]

Tierra were you hiding in the bushes with a camera when Daisy had a tantrum last night?

 

[showjump2003]

lol, I was going to say the same! That is the spitting image of my girraffe of a horse!

 

[Sal_E]

Hi Tierra - I think that saying:[ QUOTE ]
hence the contact should feel absolutly super light

[/ QUOTE ]...is a bit of a sweeping statement. People tend to train their horses to accept different degrees of contact - admittedly I've never ridden at Advanced nor dicussed what it feels like to do so, but I believe even at top levels many riders would expect a good 'contact'.

As beautiful as the picture of the lightest classical horse/rider combination is, I'm not so sure that it is common practice in reality - shame though.

Not wanting to argue with you, just introducing another opinion...

 

[Tierra]

Well I think much of it depends upon what you're aiming for to be honest.

Yes, a contact is required to ever reach the point of self carriage. It also needs to be remembered that its physically very difficult for a horse to be worked up as much as the ideal classical outline requires and that has to be taken into account throughout the training (particularly with a younger horse). It's common to see even classical masters riding horses in longer, looser outlines than the "ideal" demands because they need to have the muscles and the physical strength and capability to do so.

But for me, the point of self carriage with an advanced level horse requires that you can do a complete give and retake of the reins without the horse's outlines being altered and the contact being feather light. But this IS with an advanced level horse.

To get to that point is quite different and you're absolutly right in pointing out that contact will always be required... riding round with reins like washing lines will never go far on achieving self carriage. Equally there comes a point (imo) where you have go to be able to give the rein back to the horse. Riding all the time with a strong contact doesn't encourage lightness for me.

But you hit the nail on the head.... there are differing opinions and the gap between classical dressage and competition dressage is an interesting one. In the same way supporters of rollkur argue that their methods are sound and the classical outline puts too much strain on a horse... classical enthusiasts will argue that most of horses at GP competition are overbent and have zero degree of self carriage.

p.s dont want to argue with you either, i genuinely enjoy discussing this stuff and always like people to put over their point of view

 

[the watcher]

This is self carriage!

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/0/2/3/1/0/6/webimg/40548857_tp.jpg

or at least it is what I would hope to acheive (one day...)

 

[Tierra]

Yes! Exactly!

And for me thats truely beautiful dressage as opposed to the top hat and tails and overbent horses

Not saying the two cant go together but you know what i mean

Lovely picture

 

[Weezy]

Although you could argue that this is self carriage, when you look at it the horse is, yes, holding herself there BUT she has broken in her neck and not the poll. You can see from her hind that she is not stepping under herself and therefore although you could argue that the head position looks pretty, it is not correct.

We are a work in progress

(excuse the fact it looks as though we are going down a hill LOL)

 

[teapot]

So would this be overbent, if we're considering where the poll is?

But yet this one, could be said that he's above the vertical, ever so slightly?

What a good thread - as think so many people have differing ideas of what a "correct" outline is/should look like

 

[lemmie]

I think its very hard to abtain the ideal head position when you are riding, hours of work, schooling and practice finally lead to the horse having it down (not literally).

If working in the "correct" outline, a horses head should be on the vertical, they should be extremely supple through their poll and the rest of their body. I think that the epitomy of self carriage is when a horse is able to hold themself together with a little persuasion from the rider, but still create the ideal in which if a line were to be drawn from the horses bit, backwards towards its rear end; and if this line was kept parallel to the ground, then the line should be aboe the point of the horses hips.

If this was to be achieved then it would mean that the horse is at the height of self carriage, their backend is underneath them supplying them with the correct amount of leverage. The head (and poll) would be on the vertical line, with the rider feeling sufficient contact and with the horse going forward into the contact yet not racing away - hence the description of impulsion.

I think that another misunderstanding is when people use the word "impulsion" to describe the horses way of going - it seems that a lot of people think that impulsion can only be achieved by top dressage horses, and mainly in the movements such as passage etc. They are correct in that impulion is required here, however what they sometimes do not seem to understand is that impulsion is required in everyday riding if you wish your horse to stay supple, comfortable and with minimum amoutn of strain on any parts of their bodies. Impulsion should be present in any movement - ranging from the free walk (they should still be pushing from behind and forward going, whilst also strecthing down into the contact and strecthing their muscles - as required in some dressage tests) to movements such as Passage ... as described earlier.


Apologies for rambling on

 

[lemmie]

 

[Tierra]

Yes, that would be overbent as while the nose is on the vertical, the outline has broken before the poll and in fact, the highest point is quite a bit higher than the poll in that piccy resulting in the rainbow shape of the neck.

 

[Weezy]

Have straightened my pic up so it is clear to see that the head position is too low and not in line with the hip

 

[Tierra]

Ignoring the tracking up there though weezy... when taking into account that she doesnt yet have the muscle to carry the higher head position required of a classical ideal, it has to be seen that she's doing very well.

The poll is lower than the point at which her outline breaks, but not excessively. She's starting to get closer to the stage where the poll is inline with the point at which the outline breaks which, imo, has to be seen as the pre-requisite for higher level training. She's also carrying as opposed to being carried

I reckon the wow will also make a lot of difference to that mare.

 

[Weezy]

Thanks, we are trying! You can see just how big her shoulder is on there, I think we WILL see a hell of a lot of difference with the WOW and I will be able to ride with longer stirrups too!

 

[Bossanova]

Boss is a good one for this thread....

Tense, short in the neck and hindleg going nowhere

Nicely stepping through but using head tilt to avoid true engagement

Poll low

To my eye, very nice....

 

[Tierra]

Found another lovely piccy

(if anyone doesnt know that horse's story, he had 3 broken legs and is completly blind)

 

[Weezy]

Found my Chico pics...

Tipping behind the contact and look what happens to his back

Tight and tense (dreadfully tight and tense rider too by the looks of it

)

Certain amount of self carriage

 

[the watcher]

Tierra, that is just amazing

 

[Tierra]

Love chico :| Such a classy little horse. And again, while he's loosing himself over his back, his poll isnt much lower than the point of the outline breaking.

Its such a difficult subject... I am of the camp that believes in that illusive classical ideal... I might never fully reach it but I dont care frankly, for me that has to be the goal.

But when you look around at GP dressage... whats going on? :|

 

[Weezy]

Indeed - AND they score highly

 

[*hic*]

So if I could hijack slightly and pick your brains. . . . . This is my daughter and my "mum's safe hack" today.

He's never had to work in an outline before and she's never ridden a horse that works in an outline, so not a good combination. After lots of hard work and teenage hissy fits (from both of them - the black and white piccy of the giraffe is exactly like him in a mood) this is where she's got to in her lesson today.

Any constructive comments on how he's coming along? She alternates between the pelham and a french link full cheek snaffle.

This is a couple of months ago!

 

[Tierra]

Did i mention Hugin (the knabstrupper above) is also hmmm at least mid 20s in those pics? He still works like that because its correct... the classical ideal is created specifically to allow the horse to carry the rider in the optimum way for their physiology.

3 broken legs... blind and he's a knabstrupper... so cant even use the excuse of "spanish horses are built differently and therefore have longer working lives.. blah blah"

And yes Weezy, they score so well! Yet it was the spanish riding school that initially set the standards for the FEi rules and yet its that classical ideal that now seems to get brushed aside as being unobtainable or outdated.