Pigeon toe question for barefoot experts

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Bojingles

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Hello b/f experts,

My cob has been out of work since last summer, before which she was shod. During her time out, she's been trimmed regularly and her feet are in fine fettle: she's rid of all traces of thrush and my farrier is pleased with her clean frogs, clean soles and strong horn.

I'm just starting to bring her back into work and was toying with the idea of barefoot, particularly given that she seems to have great feet. One thing I have noticed though, is that her near fore is pigeon toed and this becomes more pronounced the nearer she is to a trim.

Would this need corrective shoeing or can it be controlled with trimming? She will be doing a lot of roadwork.

I'd appreciate any advice and can take pics tomorrow if that helps. Thanks!
 
Well I'm not sure how I personally would correct it, which is why I'm asking the question ;). Last time my farrier came I pointed it out and he agreed she was a little unbalanced and trimmed accordingly. Since then, I've been advised that shoeing would be the best way to balance the hoof and avoid any long-term problems with the leg or elsewhere.

What would you suggest?
 
My girlie is very pigeon-toed in both fronts. I let her self trim now & her feet grow as they feel they need to. If you look higher up, she's actually straighter in her legs than before. Don't just look at the feet - they're always compensating for something somewhere :)
 
Oberon said:
We're getting there now.

When a horse is pigeon toed - is the hoof at fault or the limb?
Click to expand...

Oh Oberon, are you being deliberately awkward? ;)

I don't claim to be a vet or a farrier; I'm merely asking for advice. If a pic will help, I'll post one tomorrow. She's going well in walk and trot (not cantering yet in the school, too babyish) and no one on my yard can see anything wrong in her way of going. I never noticed this problem when she was shod; only since she's been barefoot and even then I had to point it out to my farrier. Maybe it isn't even a problem?

Any advice appreciated!
 
here_i_am said:
My girlie is very pigeon-toed in both fronts. I let her self trim now & her feet grow as they feel they need to. If you look higher up, she's actually straighter in her legs than before. Don't just look at the feet - they're always compensating for something somewhere :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply here_i_am. If the pigeon toes are the result rather than the cause, are you finding that the self-management is working well?
 
I have found with pigeon toed front feet that any attempt to correct them by trimming is rapidly put back as it was by the horse. I have also found that if left alone and the horse is put into a gradually increasing program of work, that eventually the horse will grow thicker horn on the areas taking most wear and the foot will become self trimming. The secret is not to increase the work so far that one side of the foot becomes scalped before the horse has a chance to adjust the hoof thickness. It takes at least six months, a full foot growth or more, for it to happen. You can use boots intermittently meanwhile to keep up the amount of riding you want to do.

Hope that helps.


ps in an adult horse, pigeon toes are never a cause of bent legs, they are always a result of it.
 
Bojingles said:
Oh Oberon, are you being deliberately awkward? ;)

I don't claim to be a vet or a farrier; I'm merely asking for advice. If a pic will help, I'll post one tomorrow. She's going well in walk and trot (not cantering yet in the school, too babyish) and no one on my yard can see anything wrong in her way of going. I never noticed this problem when she was shod; only since she's been barefoot and even then I had to point it out to my farrier. Maybe it isn't even a problem?

Any advice appreciated!
Click to expand...

No, I'm not being deliberately awkward.....:p

No, you aren't the vet or the farrier - you are something more important. You are the owner. You know your horse better than anyone else.

So take a guess and give me your opinion.....what makes her pigeon toed - her hoof or her limb?
 
Yep, it's really working for her. What cpt said ^^^^! :-) She'd always throw massive bars or something if they were messed with. But when they're left to their own devices, everything compensates for faults elsewhere & her feet right themselves. I dont care if they're not aesthetically perfect - she's sound now & that's all i want. We're 18 months barefoot - it's a long haul but she's so much better off for it. :D
 
cptrayes said:
I have found with pigeon toed front feet that any attempt to correct them by trimming is rapidly put back as it was by the horse. I have also found that if left alone and the horse is put into a gradually increasing program of work, that eventually the horse will grow thicker horn on the areas taking most wear and the foot will become self trimming. The secret is not to increase the work so far that one side of the foot becomes scalped before the horse has a chance to adjust the hoof thickness. It takes at least six months, a full foot growth or more, for it to happen. You can use boots intermittently meanwhile to keep up the amount of riding you want to do.

Hope that helps.


ps in an adult horse, pigeon toes are never a cause of bent legs, they are always a result of it.
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Hi CPTrayes, many thanks for your reply. It's interesting to me that this issue has only become visible to me since she's been turned away (but still trimmed every 8 weeks). If you wouldn't mind I'll post some pics tomorrow - I may even be exaggerating the problem but I'd like a second opinion.

Thanks!
 
Oberon said:
No, I'm not being deliberately awkward.....:p

No, you aren't the vet or the farrier - you are something more important. You are the owner. You know your horse better than anyone else.

So take a guess and give me your opinion.....what makes her pigeon toed - her hoof or her limb?
Click to expand...

Well, to be honest, I don't know. I schooled her several times last week and watched her being schooled and I couldn't see or feel anything. Her movement is babyish and unbalanced but I can't see any issues beyond that. As a kid I had what my dad called "10 to 2 feet" and they never did me any harm. I still have them.

So my question should probably be does it matter that she's pigeon toed? I realise the answer to this depends on the cause. I think I should post some pics! Thanks again.
 
OK :D

The answer is that it's the limb.

The hoof serves the limb, not the other way around - that is an important point :).

Traditionally the focus has always been to straighten the hoof and make the hoof land evenly. Even if it isn't being LOADED evenly.....

There have been many cracking shoes tried over the decades and they have all been noted to cause more lameness than they solved and thus gone extinct :eek:.

The answer to me is to allow a horse to have a hoof balanced in sympathy to the limb, rather than fighting against it.

You can't break her leg and splint it till it's straight.....so just let the hoof work for the limb and load itself however best for the horse.

It may look ugly and mis-shapen to traditional eyes. But a sound horse without arthritis is better than a pretty looking hoof on a crippled wreck :D.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/balance-is-more-about-leg-than-hoof.html

I am knock kneed and walked toe in. My parents would punish me for doing it and tried to straighten me with remedial, built up shoes. Did it work? NOPE. I suffered agony in my knees as a kid. There was some talk of calipers until my parents saw sense and gave in. Now I walk slightly toe in and my knees feel fine.
 
Oberon said:
OK :D

The answer is that it's the limb.

The hoof serves the limb, not the other way around - that is an important point :).

Traditionally the focus has always been to straighten the hoof and make the hoof land evenly. Even if it isn't being LOADED evenly.....

There have been many cracking shoes tried over the decades and they have all been noted to cause more lameness than they solved and thus gone extinct :eek:.

The answer to me is to allow a horse to have a hoof balanced in sympathy to the limb, rather than fighting against it.

You can't break her leg and splint it till it's straight.....so just let the hoof work for the limb and load itself however best for the horse.

It may look ugly and mis-shapen to traditional eyes. But a sound horse without arthritis is better than a pretty looking hoof on a crippled wreck :D.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/balance-is-more-about-leg-than-hoof.html

I am knock kneed and walked toe in. My parents would punish me for doing it and tried to straighten me with remedial, built up shoes. Did it work? NOPE. I suffered agony in my knees as a kid. There was some talk of calipers until my parents saw sense and gave in. Now I walk slightly toe in and my knees feel fine.
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Thanks Oberon, that's really interesting. So I guess my next question would be if she goes well etc and I get her trimmed regularly can I assume it's not a problem? In this case would her "issue", if it is one, be independent and irrespective of being shod or barefoot?

(Disclaimer, I'll get farrier advice before I do anything ; ))
 
It finally dawned on me this year that my 'tidying the hoof' was doing more damage than good - one of mine is quite pigeon-toed and this looks much worse now than it ever used to but he is much sounder. From an aesthetic point of view his feet look terrible but they support him very well. I haven't touched them for about nine months now.
 
Bojingles said:
Thanks Oberon, that's really interesting. So I guess my next question would be if she goes well etc and I get her trimmed regularly can I assume it's not a problem? In this case would her "issue", if it is one, be independent and irrespective of being shod or barefoot?

(Disclaimer, I'll get farrier advice before I do anything ; ))
Click to expand...

I would say a horse with a wonky leg is always going to have a wonky leg.

BUT it doesn't have to be an issue unless we make it into an issue. If we start faffing, sculpting and messing with her hooves in an attempt to satisfy our need of a straight action - then we will create a problem.

Too much is made of 'perfect conformation' and how a horse without it may be a ticking time bomb....:rolleyes: 9/10 times WE create the problem by trying to 'correct' things "to avoid future problems" :confused:

I would always opt for keeping a horse with a conformational quirk barefoot wherever possible. But if you need to shoe - do so for periods and then allow a shoeing break.

You might find Fari's story interesting - look at the turn in his leg in the first pic :eek:

http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/page27.html
 
soloequestrian said:
It finally dawned on me this year that my 'tidying the hoof' was doing more damage than good - one of mine is quite pigeon-toed and this looks much worse now than it ever used to but he is much sounder. From an aesthetic point of view his feet look terrible but they support him very well. I haven't touched them for about nine months now.
Click to expand...

I haven't got any 'pigeon toed self trimming pics' in my library of hoof related pics.

I would be really excited if you could send me some :)
 
Oberon said:
We're getting there now.

When a horse is pigeon toed - is the hoof at fault or the limb?
Click to expand...

*warning thread hijack in action*

A question that has just sprung to my mind, are there any occasions where the hoof itself has been known to be the cause of PT, say for instance it was squiffily designed by nature (technical term:p) as opposed to the limb.

So any occasions where the limb is conformationally correct, but the hoof itself is at fault? I've always seen it as a limb issue, but perhaps there are times when hoof growth is more rapid in one area, or damage causes irregular growth to the hoof, or perhaps the shape of the hoof is naturally bad?

Have there ever been occasions where the hoof is the cause of PT?
 
OP, when you take photos, get one head on and including the legs. And be careful about getting a farrier to regularly trim (particularly one that didn't notice the problem in the first place). He may not be sympathetic to the horse's needs. What everyone said above about intervention often causing more problems than it solves applies to trimming just as much as shoeing. The ideal would be if you could build up the hacking work until the horse is maintaining her own feet, and the farrier just casts an eye over them every now and again.
 
Not pigeon toed but my squint legged youngster has made her own feet with no trimming. That's what I would aim for with yours. You need to do enough work so the feet are kept trimmed by the work.
 
My pidgeon toed cob does exactly this while Bf has improved his feet enormously he wears the out side of his feet much more and the inside and normally very conservative trimmer balances the feet by removing the horn on high ) inside side .
I was very cautious about him being BF he as a conformational fault and these horses need careful handling he's had a lot of veterinary monitoring and X-rays before and throughout being BF .
While the BF has definatly helped his foot balance, viewing it from the X-rays point of view there are clear improvements within the foot this has not been
a cheap route to go with him .
He's in light work but any attempt to up the work results in increased uneven wear .
We had a lot of imput from professionals with him and all feel as it comes to his hard work period this horse needs support from the farrier .
Because of this his trimmer the farreri and vet will meet with a remedial farrier from one of the vet unis and work out a farrier plan for his busy work time.
What has been brilliant about this is the trimmer farrier and vet have cooperated really well.
 
my mare is pidgeon toed and since taking her barefoot she has grown a set of quite funky hooves. But they support her rather twisted, over at the knee legs and she is sound (something we wern't always imediatly after being shod). At the end of the day, I wanted her comfortable.
 
Queenbee said:
*warning thread hijack in action*
Click to expand...

Discussion is gooooood :D


A question that has just sprung to my mind, are there any occasions where the hoof itself has been known to be the cause of PT, say for instance it was squiffily designed by nature (technical term:p) as opposed to the limb.
Click to expand...

In a very young horse it's easy for a hoof trim to cause irregular growth in the plates and this is often deliberately done to straight a bent limb in a foal.

There are also horses with twists very low in the leg, and even inside the feet, so the answer to your question is probably yes, but the foot itself doesn't, in my opinion, in a adult horse, cause a twist higher up the leg.

Farriers are really skilled at hiding leg twists, and some do it without consciously thinking about it and don't tell the owner what they are doing. I was another who was shocked when my straight horse suddenly became very toe out when his shoes were removed, but he was twisted from the knee, not in the foot.


So any occasions where the limb is conformationally correct, but the hoof itself is at fault? I've always seen it as a limb issue, but perhaps there are times when hoof growth is more rapid in one area, or damage causes irregular growth to the hoof, or perhaps the shape of the hoof is naturally bad?
Click to expand...

Unless there is injury, it's my experience that extra hoof growth is normally a response to a limb abnormality, and excess wear, which is more common I think, the same.

As Goldenstar has found, such horses can cope badly with peaks and troughs of workload and shoeing can be a necessity. Cortez is another who finds this an issue, preferring to keep his/her horses unshod but one in particular with peak workloads that it doesn't cope with. Shoeing is a must for horses like that if boots are not an option.


Have there ever been occasions where the hoof is the cause of PT?
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Unless it is injured at the coronet or by a keratoma or long term laminitis, for example, I would say rarely, but it is clear on xrays that the bones inside the foot, particularly the pedal bone, do remodel under excess pressure over time.
 
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Just wanted to add boots where very bad for my horse interferrred very badly with his gait so I don't use them on him have just kept him in the amount of work he's happy with even though it's less than I would like.
 
Some of them rub abominably too GS, especially the chestnuts, I have found. I don't know why that colour should be worse than any other though. They certainly aren't a cure for all ills and I wouldn't hunt in them in a month of Sundays :)
 
I will start a thread about the cob ( he's not T the hunter ) .
I will add to this thread anything helpful after cob sees this specialist farrier on the 22.
Good luck with your PT person.
 
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