Pigeon-toed and barefoot

[EmzT]

My horse has been barefoot since January. We have come through a lot since then, but finally his hooves are looking amazing and he is back in work going great.
He is quite pigeon-toed and it has definately got worse since he has been barefoot. One leg is particularly bad and it has been pointed out to me by a few people that his knee is twisting.
I had a well regarded farrier look at him and he suggested shoeing for a few months so he could trim to straighten the leg, then going back to barefoot. He seemed pretty sure that the hoof would remain straight when the shoes came off, as the low side of the hoof would then have grown to match the other side.
I am VERY reluctant to shoe this horse because it has taken so much effort to get him this far. I have also read that the way the hoof grows naturally is to give the limbs the support they need when conformation is not perfect, and that attempts to straighten can cause more harm than good. However, I do not want to wreck my horses legs whilst trying to do the best for his feet!

I am tearing my hair out over this so advice please!!!

 

[TwoStroke]

How much work is the horse in, and on what kinds of surfaces? How much turnout? Have you spoken to your trimmer about it? What's your trimmer's MO?

All these things will have a bearing on what is happening with the feet .

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I bought a 4 yr old with pigeon toes (shod). My farrier was cross that he hadn't been able to deal with her earlier as he said that now it was too late to remedy the problem - she had been neglected as a 2-3 yr old. We took her shoes off later but she remained pigeon-toed. She got arthritis in her later years. If your farrier thinks he can make a permanent difference, I would let him. You can take the shoes off again later.

 

[EmzT]

How much work is the horse in, and on what kinds of surfaces? How much turnout? Have you spoken to your trimmer about it? What's your trimmer's MO?

All these things will have a bearing on what is happening with the feet .

He's ridden usually about 4 times a week. Mostly in arena which is mostly gravel with some sand and rubber through it (not a great surface) and a bit of hacking out on tarmac. He's out in field all night and in during day. Trimmer not overly concerned but I'm in Northern Ireland and our choice of trimmers is limited to say the least. Can't say anything bad about trimmer but not sure how experienced they are.

 

[TwoStroke]

Obviously it's hard to say without seeing the horse, and how he moves. I would say that in a horse that self trims or near, I would be wary about making massive adjustments to how the horse wears his feet. That said, usually imo deviations which allow for better movement tend to allow the limbs to be straighter rather than more crooked. The feet tend to change and become 'wonky', which allows the horse to move more freely and load it's limbs more evenly. If this is not happening then I would hear the farrier out, and find out what he proposes to do. Any adjustments must be made gradually imo.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would discuss this with a vet . Where is the deviation that makes him pidgeon toed ?

 

[soloequestrian]

The hoof has to match the leg - there is no way to change the conformation of a fully grown horse, and all that straightening the hoof will do is put pressure on joints further up the leg. Once you take the shoes off again, the hooves will return to as they are now. This is basic biology.
I have two who are pigeon-toed and barefoot, and their feet do exaggerate the pigeon-toed-ness, but also provide the support the legs need. They don't look 'neat' but they are very functional. Have a look at the Rockley Farm blog for some good examples of this sort of thing.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I had a well regarded farrier look at him and he suggested shoeing for a few months so he could trim to straighten the leg,

The knee is 'set' by two years old and the whole of the front leg is 'set' by three and a half years of age (I assume that your horse is older than this?), so the Farrier is wrong, he cannot straighten the leg.

 

[Goldenstar]

The knee is 'set' by two years old and the whole of the front leg is 'set' by three and a half years of age (I assume that your horse is older than this?), so the Farrier is wrong, he cannot straighten the leg.

That's what I thought and why is the horses knee looking wonky.if it didnot do so before.
Op you the feet where looking great what do you mean by that ?
Does he have flares on the inside of his feet ?
I am assuming he has a longer wall to the inside ?
I am very interested in this as my BF horse is slightly pigeon toed but the BF makes him move less so. He developed flares on the inside of both feet which are now growing out.
It has been a subject of much discussion what's the correct thing to do with the flares.

 

[EmzT]

My horse is 7 years old.
Yes he has flares to the inside of his feet.
When I say his feet look great I mean condition wise. Lovely smooth strong hoof wall, cracking frog, smooth clean sole and no thrushy bits. All cracks and white line disease long gone. This is why I am so reluctant to shoe as his hooves used to crack round the nail holes as soon as the farrier hammered the nails in. At the end he was having bother getting any hoof to put nails into as it was all crumbling away in places.
I have looked at the Rockley Farm stories and there are some on there look very similar.

I would post some pics of his legs and feet but not sure how to!!!

Goldenstar-You say your horse developed flares which are now growing out. Can this be the case that the flares can be rectified by the horse himself as a stronger and straighter hoof wall is allowed to grow?

 

[Bikerchickone]

If I were you I'd be tempted to try to increase the work he's doing on the roads in an effort to get him to self trim and see if the hooves improve this way. One of the things I spoke to Nic about when my lad was at Rockley was hoof shape/flaring and she says that generally the horse will grow the hoof it needs and that if you change that hoof drastically away from what the horse has grown you'll make them struggle or go lame.

On Nic's advice we do lots of roadwork so that my boy is self trimming, he's not pigeon toed but he does have very slight medial flares to his fronts. However he's never moved better so I'm leaving well alone! Good luck with your lad.

 

[tallyho!]

I am sure you will find examples on the googler of pigeon toe "corrections" to give you an idea of what needs to be done.

As faracat says, if it is conformation, it may never be completely straight but will improve with sympathetic trimming or shoeing. I believe it would be better to make small adjustments, often.

I imagine the inside quarters to be longer than the outside and the sole plane will be wider on the inside than the outside. This will not necesarily be due to trim but the conformation too. Turn your knees inward and you will see you walk on the outside edge of your foot.

What may also be happening is that the horse walks this way and has grown a hoof to match his walk. I would gradually trim the inside to rebalance the hoof over a period of time. It may come back though if it's just the way he is built. Not a bad thing. Not everyone is born perfect and if he needs a hoof to grow this way and is sound, you'll just have to love him for who he is

 

[Oberon]

My horse is 7 years old.
Yes he has flares to the inside of his feet.
When I say his feet look great I mean condition wise. Lovely smooth strong hoof wall, cracking frog, smooth clean sole and no thrushy bits. All cracks and white line disease long gone. This is why I am so reluctant to shoe as his hooves used to crack round the nail holes as soon as the farrier hammered the nails in. At the end he was having bother getting any hoof to put nails into as it was all crumbling away in places.
I have looked at the Rockley Farm stories and there are some on there look very similar.

I would post some pics of his legs and feet but not sure how to!!!

Goldenstar-You say your horse developed flares which are now growing out. Can this be the case that the flares can be rectified by the horse himself as a stronger and straighter hoof wall is allowed to grow?

Flares are usually thought of as deviation to the hoof wall where it is disconnected from the laminae (the double sided sticky tape that holds the hoof to the bone ).

You can get flares as a result of diet - which makes the connection weak to start with. And/or mechanical leverage from unlevel loading.

My old horse loads his front hooves in a lateral to medial roll, rather than heel first. He gets a mechanical leverage and a small flare to the lower 1/3 of the wall in between trims. He is semi retired, so he doesn't do much work at all and cannot self trim. He is also Cushings, so he'll never have 'perfect' hooves anyway

You find a lot of TBs newly out of shoes have most of the flare to the quarters.

You're classic chronic laminitic has flare to the toe area mainly.

Opinion on flare is divided. Some people panic about it and see it as something that should be removed - to the point of rasping all the way through the wall from the outside or re-secting it

Some people note it as a sign of weakness in the laminae and look at what they can do to prevent it in future, while they wait for it to grow out.

Some people don't sweat it as long as the horse is sound.

Rockley Farm's horses are special in that Nic is one of the few people in the hoof world who has stubbornly refused to 'address' flare in the traditional sense. She simply leaves the horse to it and allows them to address it themselves on the tracks. By the time the horse leaves her, she has a pretty good idea of what shape the hoof the horse wants to have to keep it sound. Rather than flare, we describe this wonkiness in the hoof as deviation.

With enough roadwork etc, the Rockley graduate can retain that unique shape for the future and require minimal input from human hands.

However, when looking at Rockley's horses it is important to note that these are all horses with a devastating pathology of some sort. Theses horses have almost all been given a gloomy prognosis and many of them have been through the whole regime of remedial farriery yet still remained lame.

These are special cases that require a certain approach and you can't compare them with the average horse

So to conclude - there is not one answer regarding flare. To know what to do with it, it is important to understand why it's there for each individual horse. Some cases it's a temporary thing that will just grow out of it's own accord.

 

[tallyho!]

Just as an aside, do beware of over doing it when it comes to conformation. You change something in one place, something else may crop up like a splint or something. Don't do anything too radical

 

[soloequestrian]

However, when looking at Rockley's horses it is important to note that these are all horses with a devastating pathology of some sort. Theses horses have almost all been given a gloomy prognosis and many of them have been through the whole regime of remedial farriery yet still remained lame.

These are special cases that require a certain approach and you can't compare them with the average horse

Don't agree with you there Oberon - these are extreme cases, but they are on a spectrum. It's not that you can't compare them, it's just that they are at the far end of the bell curve, and and other horses will be similar, just not as extreme.

 

[brucea]

The hoof has to match the leg - there is no way to change the conformation of a fully grown horse, and all that straightening the hoof will do is put pressure on joints further up the leg. Once you take the shoes off again, the hooves will return to as they are now. This is basic biology.
I have two who are pigeon-toed and barefoot, and their feet do exaggerate the pigeon-toed-ness, but also provide the support the legs need. They don't look 'neat' but they are very functional. Have a look at the Rockley Farm blog for some good examples of this sort of thing.

You may find that it changes over time as the whole body adapts to the different way of going. My driving pony is a bit pigeon toed and it's certainly miles better now than when he was shod.

As long as he is comfortable - not much to worry about.

 

[criso]

One of the Rockley examples belongs to a friend of mine. He was pigeon toed when she got him and has 'interesting' leg conformation but at that point sound and a youngster.

He was always shod with an eye to balancing and addressing his conformation issues and the fact he eventually ended up at Rockley with foot problems suggest this approach did not help in the long term.

 

[thatsmygirl]

No I believe if the twist is from the knee there's nothing the farrier can do.
He can shape the feet and put shoes on but who's to say that's going to be right for the horse? Might not be the shape the horse is happy with. At least barefoot the horse will shape his own feet to go with his conformation

 

[Oberon]

Don't agree with you there Oberon - these are extreme cases, but they are on a spectrum. It's not that you can't compare them, it's just that they are at the far end of the bell curve, and and other horses will be similar, just not as extreme.

The point I was trying to make is that Rockley graduates tend to be in more of a delicate balance than the average horse.

You can trim most normal horses 'straighter' and they can get over it, even if it wasn't the right thing.

Once home, more than one Rockley graduate has been made sore again by well meaning hoof care professionals. They really cannot tolerate even a mm of tissue out of place.

Of course, they are likely to be more robust when they have had time.

But it's worth noting, as you say, that Rockley's horses are on the more extreme end of the spectrum .

Speaking generally, even in the BF world, you can have opposing sides when it comes to dealing with flare/deviation;

1) Remove excess wall tissue to make the horse walk straighter and wear straighter (to my old boy it means dealing with the medial side). So it's like resetting back to zero.

2) Leave the hoof alone and let the horse trim himself (which requires enough work and/or an abrasive turnout area).

I think most 'normal' horses sit somewhere in the middle of this .

We can all agree that we need to look at the horses individually and assess what's best.
The traditional answer to gait imbalance, uneven wear, conformational faults has always been, "Shoe it" with an array of special shoes (the ones in the US are quite spectacular ). But then we get frying pan to fire

 

[tallyho!]

Yep.

 

[Goldenstar]

My horse is 7 years old.
Yes he has flares to the inside of his feet.
When I say his feet look great I mean condition wise. Lovely smooth strong hoof wall, cracking frog, smooth clean sole and no thrushy bits. All cracks and white line disease long gone. This is why I am so reluctant to shoe as his hooves used to crack round the nail holes as soon as the farrier hammered the nails in. At the end he was having bother getting any hoof to put nails into as it was all crumbling away in places.
I have looked at the Rockley Farm stories and there are some on there look very similar.

I would post some pics of his legs and feet but not sure how to!!!

Goldenstar-You say your horse developed flares which are now growing out. Can this be the case that the flares can be rectified by the horse himself as a stronger and straighter hoof wall is allowed to grow?

Yes I do feel that he's sorting himself.
When shod that exactly what happened to him cracks on the inside and you could see the feet trying to flare on the inside when he was due to shoe.
He came out of work because he developed two splints below the knee one on each leg they where non painful the horse was never lame but every time we tried to up the work they grew.
So I took him out of work took the shoes off he showed no discomfort when the shoes where removed.
The flares bigger on one foot that he other developed quite quickly but he's always been sound trimmer was relaxed and straight way say they will grow out given time .
They are now much much smaller and the 'corner' of the flare is chipping away at the moment .
I don't know where we will end with it it will be interesting to see what's interesting is since I removed the shoes he's reabsorbed one splint and the other has reduced by 2/3rds.
I think the farrier was making his feet the shape a perfect shape and that was some how linked to the splints.
My vet is very anti BF which is difficult my farrier is very traditional and of the only ponies work without shoes camp so I use a trimmer whose has been a great
help but my horse is in the hardest work of all the horses on his books in that he is being trained for the flat work in quite on intense way he stared life as a carriage horse and was broken to ride a ten.
I hack him on the roads twice weekly and he works in the school and in a grass arena and does the odd exciting hack and jumps a little .
His deviation is between the fetlock and the coronet and very very slight.

 

[EmzT]

Thanks so much everyone for taking the time to write these detailed replies. I do believe that we should leave well alone as this stage as his paces have improved dramatically since the shoes came off, as has his temperament since I changed his diet.

The yard owner where I keep him is the main person who voices concerns about his feet and legs. However, he keeps show horses and correct conformation is a big thing to him. He also shoes his yearlings as he thinks their feet will wear away when he walks them on the road!
Of course we would all like our horses to be perfectly put together but what my horse lacks in straightness he more than makes up for in temperament. I just want to do the right thing for him so as I can enjoy him for as long as possible.

I will increase his road work and see if that makes a difference to the flaring.

 

[soloequestrian]

This is a response to Oberon, but ended up out of order!

But are the Rockley horses different to 'ordinary' horses, or have they just had an environment that lead them to problems? I have one bit TB who reacts to very slight trimming, and another TBx who never reacts no matter how much is shaved off his feet. Neither have ever had lameness issues. My point was that you made excellent points in your post but then seemed to indicate that they don't apply to most horses, which I think they do!

 

[Goldenstar]

It has changed the quality of my horses movement he was always a spectacular mover but he moves in a softer more expressive way I am happy with him but it does get some getting used to leaving 'incorrect ' shaped feet.
Who trims your horses feet What do they say ?

 

[0310Star]

My mare is slightly pigeon footed in front. She was always shod and I chose to take her shoes off last September as her hooves were crumbling and the shoes were falling off!!
I 100% belive that shoes cover up problems, when I removed my mares shoes we noticed quite early on that she was in fact pigeon footed. 3 months later she was being difficult and ended up being diagnosed with ringbone, side bones and DJD which she must have had for a while before we noticed there was a problem!

My farrier always says she decides which front to be pigeon fotted on as for some reason it changes each time the farrier comes..... She's not awkward... much

But I have noticed in about the last 2 months that they seem to be straightening on their own! Her feet are fantastic and she is self trimming as we hack a fair amount too and her confirmation is showing a marked improvement without us even trying to get an improvement as it has never really bothered me how she stands!

She may never be a show horse, but she is great and she make's up for it in every other respect

 

[Angua2]

another one here with a pidgeon toed shoeless beastie. My mares deviation starts at the knee so nothing was ever going to put this right, I feel that she has been sounder out of shoes, as while there wasn't any thing tangible then, now she is swingier and way happier down hills and such like.

Interestingly this comment from Tally Ho really does sum up my mares hooves

I imagine the inside quarters to be longer than the outside and the sole plane will be wider on the inside than the outside. This will not necesarily be due to trim but the conformation too. Turn your knees inward and you will see you walk on the outside edge of your foot.

I think this has been mentioned but I also find with my mare that the more messing around professionals do with her hooves the more unsound she becomes, meaning I have to just let her get on with it and self trim

 

[Bikerchickone]

In the case of my Rockley rehab horse his collateral ligament injury was due to bad shoeing allowing his heels to almost collapse and his toes to become too long. Mild navicular changes were noted on his MRI too, but these were mild. My vet and I were both of the opinion that the bad shoeing whilst he was out on loan was to blame. So whilst he's a rehab horse I don't think he's that much different to any other barefoot horse.

 

[Orangehorse]

My horse is slightly pigeon-toed. My farrier shod him wonderfully for the show ring, you could not tell at all. However, I noticed a lump forming above his knee. Ihad the vet out and the farrier at the same time, but the vet was happy with the farrier and thought the lump was an injury. Horse was quite sound but being a bit trippy, so I decided to take his shoes off and do the barefoot thing. His feet got more and more pigeon-toed through the winter, then by the following summer they re-adjusted themselves and didn't look bad. The horse was growing the hoof to support himself in his way. Oh, and the lump above his knee disappeared.

 

[tallyho!]

My horse is slightly pigeon-toed. My farrier shod him wonderfully for the show ring, you could not tell at all. However, I noticed a lump forming above his knee. Ihad the vet out and the farrier at the same time, but the vet was happy with the farrier and thought the lump was an injury. Horse was quite sound but being a bit trippy, so I decided to take his shoes off and do the barefoot thing. His feet got more and more pigeon-toed through the winter, then by the following summer they re-adjusted themselves and didn't look bad. The horse was growing the hoof to support himself in his way. Oh, and the lump above his knee disappeared.

Thus further propagating how TIME is the greatest healer...

TIME is the father of barefoot (alright, he's a bit of a cad coz he's father of many things). Not many mention him or give him much credit.

His wife PATIENCE is there to help you, yet many ignore her...

KNOWLEDGE are her children but not many people get on with them...

Claptrap of course but still......... it helped me

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The yard owner where I keep him is the main person who voices concerns about his feet and legs. However, he keeps show horses and correct conformation is a big thing to him. He also shoes his yearlings as he thinks their feet will wear away when he walks them on the road!