Placing riders together when judged by separate judges?

LeannePip

LeannePip

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Can anyone clarify how this works for me, I am confused beyond belief!

Went to our RC Area qualifier today as a part of a team. There were two arenas running Nov24, one lot indoor for all of the senior team members second arena outdoors for juniors and individual riders.

Our arena finished at 11.45 and the second arena started at 12 with a different judge.

Our results went up and there was a nice little number 1 next to my name - yay!

Had to leave, bit later a friend sent me my sheet with 4th on it . . . slightly confused - turns out they placed all the riders from both arenas together which dropped us to fourth.

Can anyone explain how this works? I have never known two arenas to be placed together with separate judges and don't understand how that can be fair?

the second judge scored up to 73% and my judge scored up to just short of 70% so probably some difference in scoring, 1st and 2nd in my arena only finished 4th and 6th overall which looks like the odds were definitely in the favour of the second arena?

I've never experienced this before and just feeling a bit sore having thought we were off the the champs to now not!
 
I don't need to challenge it, it was my riding club running it so don't think it was anything untoward!

I just don't get how you can ever make that 'fair' - like with eventing you only ever compete against the people in your dressage arena as that is the subjective score . .
 
I've not experienced this before either FWIW though it's been a while since we did RC obviously ;) so I went to look.

handbook page 113/114

The maximum number of riders per arena should be adhered to at all area qualifiers and championships.
The numbers to qualify (relating to ‘highest placed individual’ per arena) will be based on the number of actual prelim
entries being split in to the correct number of arenas as per this table.

For winters Teams to qualify are
1 to 20: 1
21 to 30: 2
31 to 40: 3
40 or more : 4

Individuals
Highest placed rider in each arena not
part of the qualifying team
 
Ahh thats interesting Ester - so does that mean we should qual any way? our team came 4th so didn't qualify or do i have to have been an ACTUAL individual rather than and individual by being in a team.

Going to search the rule book - good though! :D
 
As a team you would qualify if there were more than 40 teams entered.
All team members are also automatically entered as individuals and the highest placed of each arena not qualifying as part of a team qualifies.


were they short on rosettes?! :p, honestly it does seem very strange and I would be querying it with the organising club (I know you said yours ;)) or the area rep.
Because from that I would also wonder how they did the team placings, as that certainly always used to be done by adding up the individual placings in each arena.

checked, still is! But you should have an area person there signing that off for the day too.


Once the placings for an arena have been calculated, the team penalties for all team riders
in that arena can be worked out.
This is done as follows:-
The individual positions of each team rider in the arena, discounting non team members,
are converted to penalties as follows:- 1st = 1 penalty; 2nd = 2 penalties, 3rd = 3 penalties
 
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not that many teams unfortunately!

I messaged my 'team manager' with the section from the rule book and she's going to check with the RC person in charge of these things and said it looks like we qualified if thats what it says in the rule book!

Thanks for finding that would never have thought to check the rule book! :D :D
 
^^ i just edited with how they should have worked out team placings too, worth reading over, but as I say there should have been someone from area (who should know) checking this.
 
I made a spreadsheet for our RC that calculates all the scoring over multiple arenas/judges and gives an overall top 10 as well as an arena/judge top 10 - happy to send it round if anyone here wants it! From memory BRC have a weird way of calculating and weighting points from certain arenas which can be complicated (hence the spreadsheet :p ). It's worth reading the rules about it.
 
found it! page 116 (I am such a loser!)

Examples of evaluating overall individual awards
1. Calculate the average percentage score for each arena (for horse trials and combined
training only use the dressage penalties) after discarding the highest and lowest score
from each arena.
2. Decide which is the best scoring arena (highest average percentage for dressage or
riding test, lowest average penalties for horse trials and combined training)
3. Assess the difference between the average of each arena and the average of the best
arena
4. Add (or subtract for horse trials and combined training) the difference to/from the
score of each competitor in each other arena
5. Now assess the best overall mark
Dressage Example
Arena 1 Average 49%
Arena 2 Average 45%
Arena 3 Average 47%
Arena 4 Average 50%
So, the best marked Arena is Arena 4 at 50%, therefore, we would need to add 1 to Arena
1 competitors scores, 5 to Arena 2 scores and 3 to Arena 3 scores.
Horse Trials / Combined Training Example
Arena 1 Average 35 penalties
Arena 2 Average 32 penalties
Arena 3 Average 37 penalties
Arena 4 Average 33 penalties
So, the best marked Arena is Arena 2 at 32 penalties, therefore, we would need to deduct
3 from the Arena 1 competitors scores, 5 from Arena 3 scores and 1 from Arena 4 scores.
 
I don't know how it works but I think I've done a riding club event that was marked like this. I think they managed to average out the marks between the two judges.

I don't know how but it must have worked out ok because i don't remember any complaints and these people are big into rules.
 
SusieT said:
I'd be a bit miffed but as you left you can't legitamitely challenge the results I'm afraid
Click to expand...

Bet you can, email BRC direct and ask them. Its a qualifier so its more important than just a regular competition so its not fair if the results are wrong which IMO they have to be. You cannot possibly have 2 different judges for the same class!!
 
Sounds wrong to me - highest placed individuals, not part of a winning team also qualify. All team members automatically run as individuals and those extra individuals not in a team always run in the same arena/judge otherwise how can you compare?! Fine to run the juniors separate but not the seniors.
 
Thanks guys, esp Ester for pointing out the rule book! duh!

Ive checked the rules and it all seems legit they can only run 30 horses (at novice in one arena) any more they go into another arena but they have some funky maths thing to work out the overall scoring to see if its fair - i don't think this is foolproof but never mind them's the rules.

Looking at it we should still qualify as per the rule which says 'highest placed individual riders not part of the qualifying team <b>from each arena to qualify</b>' my riding club think this is wrong and we don't qualify as we were 4th overall (as individuals out of all 60 horses who did Nov24) even though we won our arena. But to be fair my RC are quite small fry and no one seems to know whats going on anyway!

I'm just going to call BRC tomorrow and see if i can get some sense from them.
 
It definitely says per arena :p Hope you do get to go :)

Re. splitting arenas ideally if you have a team where two people are doing the novice test (I think winters is 2 novice, 2 prelim) then you should have a separate arena for each person doing a test. I suspect the numbers don't always work out to well though - there was a reason I only ever ran the winter SJ ;) :D
 
yes sort of the case, in the team you only have 1 rider per test so it was Prelim something, Nov24, Nov30 and Ele something so no team riders from the same team were in the same arena/test - very confusing!

Think i'll go back to BE, can you imagine going to the scoreboard to find out they'd decided to merge all the sections together from different judges, but its ok because they have a formula to make sure its fair!? :D
 
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