Planning permission - Eek!

[Buzzad]

I have a feeling this may turn into a whingey post... Sorry in advance! Just need to see if anyone has been in this situation?

I'm in the process of buying my own field, 5 minutes from my house, 5 acres of agricultural greenbelt land. Perfect spot, next door to a livery yards, decent hacking etc -- Excited me!!!

The field is situated between 2 cottages, the main road, and a huge boudary line of trees, so I thought I'd do things properly and submit a pre application advise form, with drawings, details of my plan etc.

My plan solely consists of a small wooden stable block of 3 stables, with a concrete base for them to sit on, and a few square metres for them to mill around in in the bleak depths of winter incase the ground is getting badly poached.

I recieved and email reply stating that concrete would not be the ideal base, and that it would be better if I use compacted gravel instead.

Now seriously, does anybody have a stable block permanently based on compacted gravel? Surely this would get cut up and covered in mud/muck/hay etc within days, and impossible to sweep as you'd be sweeping away the gravel base? Leaving a bit of a mess?

I just cant imagine how that would work? and now I'm worried that as I have been advised this on my pre application, that when I apply for the PP as I want it (because I cannot see how compacted gravel will stand the test of time in this kind of environment) that it will just be flat rejected as per the advice given before submitting?

I could go on for a very long time about the other 'advice' given on the 1 and a half page response to my original well put together, detail packed, eagerly awaited request, but that would only bore you, and I think I may be over reacting, but this is my dream darn it! :'(

Tea and biscuits for anybody who read this far! not the most fun filled post was it...

But seriously, any advice or experiences would be really gratefully received

 

[Angus' yard]

Hi, have you used a planning consultant to submit your application? The requirements of council planning departments varies from area to area and a local practice who specialises in planning for stables would be able to advise you, for a relatively small outlay. Pm me if you wish - we are currently going through the planning procedure ourselves! Will be pleased to share our experience with you!

 

[Buzzad]

Thanks Angus' Yard, yes we did contact a consultant who gave us a good idea of what we needed to submit and how to put it, so we were feeling pretty confident that what we were proposing was well within the parameters of the area, just couldn't believe it when the planner responded advising replacing stable base of concrete to gravel :-S

I will PM you for your experiences with PP, what area are you in? Ive heard the process varies wildly over the country!
Sorry I'm on my phone so can't see much info, and PM doesn't work great...

 

[Angus' yard]

Thanks Angus' Yard, yes we did contact a consultant who gave us a good idea of what we needed to submit and how to put it, so we were feeling pretty confident that what we were proposing was well within the parameters of the area, just couldn't believe it when the planner responded advising replacing stable base of concrete to gravel :-S

I will PM you for your experiences with PP, what area are you in? Ive heard the process varies wildly over the country!
Sorry I'm on my phone so can't see much info, and PM doesn't work great...[/QUOTE

Will be glad to help. We are in Essex

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

I would submit it with the concrete on the basis of it being the min area possible (eg just concrete under stables and the rest hardcore (which will if you choose a mix with lots of stone dust in it compact pretty close to solid anyway) ) and also the most tidy to avoid mess in the location and for any neighbours.

 

[Palindrome]

The gravel base might be good for drainage, better than having mud forming around your concrete, which could become slippery in winter. You could cover with rubber mats in the stables and leave as it outside.
If it is a wooden stable block, you need to put some posts in concrete but don't necessarily need the whole concrete base. You can even put the rubber matting directly on the ground if it's well leveled.

 

[Wells]

Have the planners said why they think compacted grave would be better than concrete?

 

[JillA]

Have the planners said why they think compacted grave would be better than concrete?

Ask the question - and keep asking. I hate to say it, and apologies if there are any planners on here, but there is a certain level of power play at work with planners - one former one in this area had all sorts of hang ups about render, UPVC windows etc., all because of her personal preference, not evidence based.

 

[Buzzad]

Thanks for all your responses guys, I appreciate your ideas

I had thought of meeting the council half way with requesting permission for Concrete just under the stable, and the gravel alternative for the yard area, but there's a stubborn part of me that really wants the full concreted area, as I really want this to last a long time, dont worry, I know there's no room for stubborness with Planners ;-) they make the call at the end of the day! I think it's just the fact I have such a long term investment in this is putting me off compromising so much about the base and using rubber matting on the gravel etc, and I do think, if rejected, I would save myself the expense of buying tonnes of gravel that I dont really want anyway, and take your idea Palindrome, and just have the concrete support for my wooden stables (which have been approved in principle ), and just put matting down on the ground in the stable, as thankfully the ground is lovely and flat

The reason the planner gave for compacted gravel being better than concrete is....

'With regard the proposed hard standing, concrete would not usually be deemed appropriate; hard standings, like stables, should minimise impact on the Green Belt. Compacted gravel of an agreed colour may be a more sympathetic surfacing for this area taking into account the context of the location'

So I know that isnt a flat NO CONCRETE! but I worry that in 'planning speak' it is basically a no....

But as detailed on the submission, this small block of land is between 2 houses, 1 house hase a 5 stable yard, which is fully concreted, and across the road is a big livery yard, again concrete based, in addition the big livery yard across the road is in the process of building a huge american barn style stable block (looks lovely! if I hadnt bought this land I think I would have just moved on there!) So I cant really see how the planner has deemed my proposal out of context with the immeditely surrounding area?

Hope that all made sense?

 

[JanetGeorge]

Have the planners said why they think compacted grave would be better than concrete?

Because they think it would be easier to get rid of in 20 years?? I can assure you that compacted gravel as a stable base is HARD work - we have it in one lean-to which contains 4 BIG stables (15x24) which are used for weanling groups at that time of year - or give BIG horses more room the rest of the year! The gravel is VERY compacted (it's actually tarmac planings) but there are dips in the doorways from thorough sweeping (and horses awaiting at feed time). It's not much 'softer' than concrete (all my concrete boxes have rubber matting) - I wouldn't do it again!

 

[Wells]

If they are talking about the look of the area, I can't see how they can object to concrete under the stables as it won't be seen. With the amount of other yards around with concrete yards, I'd keep pushing. We added landscaping to our proposal - can you agree to put a hedge around the yard so that it can't be seen from the road?

 

[Buzzad]

If they are talking about the look of the area, I can't see how they can object to concrete under the stables as it won't be seen. With the amount of other yards around with concrete yards, I'd keep pushing. We added landscaping to our proposal - can you agree to put a hedge around the yard so that it can't be seen from the road?

Thankfully there is a pre existing hedge which borders the road which we will be maintaining, we have proposed the stables to be in line with the hedge, looking out onto the field, so really nothing will be visible from the road, though the planner did also say that the orientation of the stables should be turned 90degrees so as to not restrict the view across the greenbelt, frustrating, because the hedge already 'obscures' the view, and the only 'view' is my 5 acres as it is bordered by the two houses and the big tree line at the back.

I'm really struggling to see how he has come to his decisions I think :-(

 

[Wells]

Can you get them to do a site visit? I know we have to protect the Greenbelt but as you say, it sounds like the view isn't of miles of rolling coutryside!
Turning the stables 90 degrees might be the compromise you need to make to get the concrete yard.

 

[Buzzad]

Can you get them to do a site visit? I know we have to protect the Greenbelt but as you say, it sounds like the view isn't of miles of rolling coutryside!
Turning the stables 90 degrees might be the compromise you need to make to get the concrete yard.

I hadnt thought of requesting a site visit (doh!), this is a really good idea, thanks! they can then see for themselves the kind of area it is in, and it can be taken into consideration, I would have no issue with the orientation being altered if it means that I can get the base I'd like, main reason for us having the stables facing the field was more for security, nobody driving past could see into the stable block, but as the hedge is there then I dont suppose this would really be an issue.

Right, hopefully I can organise a site visit! Wish me luck

 

[Bennions Field]

I totally understand your frustrations,

i have concrete just under my stable block an L shape of 4 stables and a trailer garage. i put hardcore outside for my 'yard' area. it was compacted etc as requested, and it also was cheaper when i initially brought the field.

once all the building work was finished i then put thick (2-3") used 2ft x 3ft concrete slabs on top of the hardcore which makes a level yard the same height as the stable floors (concrete does extend under the 3ft overhang though) its worked for me for the last 8 years (friend of mine also uses block paviours) - i have fairly wet land and yes its a little softer in places in the worst of the wet over the winter, its certainly not a problem, and to be honest if i was to lift then i could put a little more hardcore/dust down to fix things i just dont have the time. its easy to keep tidy, sweep, stand the horses on and best of all the slabs were free from someone locally

it got round the planners issues with having horses on green belt, which i also needed to have change of use for the land to 'horseyculture' when i put my planning application in. something they didnt tell me when i spoke to them initially, but would have prevented me having my own horses on my own land ????

there are ways round things, and just because someone has 'advised' doesnt always mean they wont pass other things. something about planners and horses just doesnt seem to sit well, they seem to approve anything agricultural that has huge impact on the environment / agricultural area, whilst being really petty with people who want horsey things that have the most minimal impact and allow the countryside to be - countryside

best of luck OP, i've currently got planning in with my local team for a hay barn, i am awaiting their opinion on my FULL planning application for an agricultural building, which any farmer would be allow to build without any plans at all !

 

[Buzzad]

Thanks for you experiences Benions Field, I never thought that such a small proposition for land that would be perfect for such a use would be met with such negativity! Does seem that planners are not a fan of the horsey culture...

The advice did state that conversion to equestrian use would be acceptable in principle though, so that is a positive I guess.

I really hope that the advise I've been given doesnt affect the decidion made by the approval team, and I am glad I have done htis, as it has highlighted the issues which the council believe are there,e which I had no idea would cause any problems...

Good luck with your hay barn application!

 

[Bennions Field]

oh buzzard, thank you, i think i'm going to need it! i have a duck pond right next to where the hay barn is going to go, running in a line from my stable block, apparently i might disturb any newts that may potentially be on/around/in my pond - the fact that i have 5 hungry domestic ducks eating anything and everything that is within 500 yards of the said pool (which i put in) has no bearing over the POTENTIAL for any newts - sometimes i do wonder what some planners have running through their thoughts????

best of luck with your stables, it will definately be worth all the stress and worry once its all up and running, i brought my 4 acres 9 years ago, i've never regretted it for one minute, i could never go back to livery yards - if you have any issues with the planners, just remember it will be all over shortly and you will then be able to really enjoy being a land owner with your own rules and regulations over what happens to your horses, enjoy

 

[Buzzad]

Oh no! I hear planners are rather fond of newts! lol, in all seriousness, I hope the planners can see past that issue, and grant you your PP

I think I'll need a lot of luck! but thankfully I can be patient, well, when I really try and I've emailed the planner back to request a site visit, which I think will be really beneficial, as there is a lot of precedent in the area for what I have proposed, and I am hopeful that once this is clear, then I shouldn't have too many more issues, and I can really start enjoying what I've been saving for for years, keep having to pinch myself, cant believe I'm finally getting my own land, and can do what I like when I like on my own little patch. Excited!!!

 

[Nicnac]

Get a professional into do it for you. I am talking through experience!

If you don't and get turned down you will have to go to appeal which will cost a hell of alot more in the long term. Yes it's an upfront cost, but well worth it. Did you have your drawings done professionally? If not, do so before your site visit.

It's amazing the arguments that professionals can come up with to push back against planners - they have a wealth of experience. Go for one who is specialised in stables/agricultural buildings.

I was able to build a manege over council drains by going the pro route - if I hadn't, I'd still be pottering around my fields 15 years later with no school.

Good luck! (hope above makes sense am a bit busy so typing fast!)

 

[Buzzad]

Thanks Nicnac, I did my own drawings last time, in fairly competent with a pencil and ruler and scale/perspective etc, so it was detailed and clear, and the stable design and construction was given thumbs up on the response for pre app, it is just the concrete base and orientation really, which I hope will be looked on more favourably once a site visit is done, although I am happy to amend the orientation if the base can be approved, as it really is well suited to the surroundings.

I'm amazed you managed to get a ménage on council drain area, your professional guy must be a wizard! I may need his number... Lol

 

[WelshD]

Could you argue the point on a drainage basis maybe?

Also if colour seems so important to them you could suggest a dyed concrete rather than a grey slab of it

(or maybe compromise on concrete with gravel pressed and levelled in to it?)

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

Tell them your aim is for it to be neat and tidy and not an eyesore. Concrete will enable that far better than gravel altho it will be more expensive as drainage will need to be properly installed so be prepared for that, you may need drain channels and a soak away dug (and filled with, you guessed it, gravel!)

Offer to paint the stables dark brown or green to camouflage them, and rather than fanny around re concrete dyes, bizarre idea, concentrate on screen ing with hedge and or post and plank fencing painted dark brown or green.

 

[Triskar]

Scalpings well whacked down topped with rubber mats in the stables themselves. Our hard standing is scalpings - not as slippery for the horses in icy weather or if they have a bit of a hooley about. Scalpings are usually local stone, so will not be obtrusive.

 

[Buzzad]

Thanks for your thoughts guys,

I really am quite a neat freak, I need to be able to clean up thoroughly, or I genuinely wouldn't like the sight of my own place! - Seriously, thinking about it, I may have a minor form of OCD... so I really want the level even, non crumbling surface that concrete can provide. Really will press the point about having concrete in order to maintain a clean tidy site.

The more I've thought about it, I really think that the presence of this big hedge which forms the boundary with the road will really hide any kind of development, so I think I really need to get a Council Officer out to the field to assess whether what I am proposing will actually be an issue.

 

[Rollin]

I won't tell you of our own experiences with planners!!! We had an architect who cost a fortune.

Just a comment on compacted surfaces. I was a BHS access officer for a time. The National Cycle Network in Scotland was constructed from Type 2 which is a mixture of stone and dust, compacted and then topped with Whindust (hope that is correct spelling). The Access Officer for our local National Park, told me this construction, well laid is as good as tarmac for smoothness and durability.

 

[Buzzad]

Well I replied to the planner's mail to request a site visit to discuss the proposal and how it would sit in the surroundings, and he has replied stating that a site visit will not be necessary as planning is likely to be granted if the minor amendments are made, and basically made me feel like an idiot really.
However I don't see his proposals as minor amendments, I really do want this to last for a long long time, anyone got any ideas as to what I can do next? :-( I don't want to get on the wrong side of Planner....

 

[Alfiepie]

Ok how about the compacted gravel - we got some that has set like concrete anyway without it actually being concrete - or put rubber matting over the top of the gravel - Old stable mats we have done this on our paddock with "mobile field shelters that havent been moved for yrs !! the rubber matting works a treat the compacted gravel is on walkways around the stables/shelters ie to from muck heap etc. The grace we used was about 10 20mm and had a lot of dust in it it has to be thick to set hard and not ground into ground but honestly it works and it is actually gravel - in fact we are using it again as a base for a new "mobile" field stable for our baby when he comes in November.

 

[dawn m]

Why not go ahead with the gravel and then when things have settled down have the stables concreted inside and no one need know. Oops did I really say that?

 

[Suelin]

Your planner does seem to be a jobsworth. When we applied for our yard we just gave them the drawings and applications. We have a 3 sided yard with a fence to the front and the concrete only is the size of the squared off outline of the buildings and fence (does that make sense?). Our yard area is 12' x 48' which is the bit in front of and between the 2 ends.

Personally I would say to the planner that I need to have a concrete area of the immediate yard for hygiene purposes. Speak to your vet and ask him/her for a letter of confirmation of that need. It is far easier to maintain cleanliness with a smooth surface let's face it. It might be worth seeing what the BHS recommend for a stable yard (if they recommend anything) and enclosing that with your application. Take photographs of professional yards owned by Charities, professional riders, etc. Explain in your application that this is how it is done properly. It would be hard for the planner to refute that evidence I think. Further get hold of your district councillor and talk to him/her about your plans and explain your needs and concerns and get him/her to speak up on your behalf. The DC can request a site visit as well which may help your cause. Include as much evidence as you can with your application.

I know that other methods work but quite frankly if you are paying for all of this, you want things to work for you easily. Landscaping is good but do not mention the word Leylandii if you are going to have hedging. Go for British native stuff. Hawthorn etc. Planners get nosebleeds and come out in spots at the mere mention of the word Leylandii!!!

Bombard them with evidence is my advice and I sincerely hope that you win the day. Good luck.

 

[Buzzad]

Thanks for the input guys I really am going to push for concrete, at the end of the day I don't want to be spending my money on gravel that I don't want, and I really don't think would work out in the long term, for many reasons, so I'm going to go with the info overload, a lot of justification, and highlighting the yard next door and across the road's use of concrete for precedent, good idea for going with hygiene angle suelin, I will highlight that point too

Think I'll be spending this weekend fine tuning this proposal! Thanks for everyone's input, I have found some great ideas, feeling more positive now, so glad I asked in here for advice