Planting !! Help please !!!

[mandysk]

Hi all, does anyone have any tips for a planter ? No medical issues, saddle and teeth etc all fine, he will be fine for ages, then will just decide he doesnt want to do it some days and will plant. He doesn't do it with my trainer, but he's male, physically stronger in leg and seat than me, my boy was hand reared by a man, and does seem to have more respect for me in general. He is a big lad at 17'2, he's now riding 6, and I thought we'd cracked it as he hasn't really done it for a few months, then it appeared again at the weekend, it's the most frustrating thing in the world, tried the usual, getting the feet to move in any direction, circles, being nice, being firmer ... at a loss, please any suggestions welcome. Tia.

 

[bubsqueaks]

Groundwork - he's using the "brace" technique which underpins most problems we encounter.
From firsthand experience I can hugely recommend you take a look at Richard Maxwell's facebook, books, website, etc.
He explains the process in such simple layman terms & it works!
Good luck.

 

[CJoe]

If he is truly blocking, do the opposite of what you should do....DO NOTHING!!! just take any reaction anyway, no leg no nothing, sit like sack of spuds until he is bored...……….if he doesn't do it to your trainer he clearly is taking the mick, but you need to find a way (bearing in mind he is bigger than you and stronger) to surprise him that doesn't involve getting into a battle.....!!! ignoring and waiting it out sometimes works, worth a go!!!! Everyone is so fast to give more leg, try to move them so that they then move their legs, wave a stick, flick the reins etc etc, pat pat pat, totally ignore, no nothing, and patience!!! xxx

 

[Cortez]

I know what I'd do, but everybody on here would have kittens, and you need to be a very secure rider (like your trainer, probably). This involves a sturdy friend with good timing and a lunge whip....

 

[CJoe]

I know what I'd do, but everybody on here would have kittens, and you need to be a very secure rider (like your trainer, probably). This involves a sturdy friend with good timing and a lunge whip....

As someone who specializes in sorting out nappy planting horses, this is the worst thing you can do......it then makes it an issue with whips etc and you end up in vicious circle...…..you have to get into their heads not whip them LOL.....

Number one rule when hacking or planting hacker....don't carry a whip...it's another reason to get into an argument, they are bigger than us, and stronger, end of, doesn't matter how good your seat is, you are creating more of a problem..there is always a reason for planting and you will not always have your mate to hand with a lunge whip. Horses are really not stupid.....

Not about having kittens, it's about your method simply compounding the problem, then causing a further issue with whips....

 

[Cortez]

As someone who specializes in sorting out nappy planting horses, this is the worst thing you can do......it then makes it an issue with whips etc and you end up in vicious circle...…..you have to get into their heads not whip them LOL.....

Number one rule when hacking or planting hacker....don't carry a whip...it's another reason to get into an argument, they are bigger than us, and stronger, end of, doesn't matter how good your seat is, you are creating more of a problem..there is always a reason for planting and you will not always have your mate to hand with a lunge whip. Horses are really not stupid.....

Not about having kittens, it's about your method simply compounding the problem, then causing a further issue with whips....

As someone who has sorted out countless nappy horses/ponies/mules/whatever it is most certainly an effective method for the type of horse that is a spoiled, undisciplined bugger. Horses mostly nap because they won't go forwards, which is a major fail in the basic training. Figuring out if that is the horse you have in front of you is the skill part.

 

[CJoe]

As s
omeone who has sorted out countless nappy horses/ponies/mules/whatever it is most certainly an effective method for the type of horse that is a spoiled, undisciplined bugger. Figuring out if that is the horse you have in front of you is the skill part.

Exactly.....HOWEVER, I have not come across a spoilt as in spoilt bratt one yet...……...in 30 years! I have come across plenty of "spoilt by humans horses" though!

 

[Cortez]

Exactly.....HOWEVER, I have not come across a spoilt as in spoilt bratt one yet...……...in 30 years! I have come across plenty of "spoilt by humans horses" though!

All horses are spoiled by humans; what's your point?

 

[CJoe]

All horses are spoiled by humans; what's your point?

AS IN - spoiled by kindess and softness, not being a leader....(fluffy owner...)

OR

Spoiled by someone claiming to be an expert giving them a good whacking and or/something else painful and forceful....

There is a huge difference, the latter having a longer lasting negative effect.

 

[Cortez]

AS IN - spoiled by kindess and softness, not being a leader....(fluffy owner...)

OR

Spoiled by someone claiming to be an expert giving them a good whacking and or/something else painful and forceful....

There is a huge difference, the latter having a longer lasting negative effect.

I did not advocate "a good whacking", nor the use of pain. If you look I said "good timing" which is the vital bit. I did not elaborate, but usually the surprise-pop-in-the-bum method is only used once, thereafter training the horse to properly answer the forward aids (i.e. instantly and without argument) is usually sufficient to drive all notions of disobedience out of the horse's head.

Getting the rider to learn to ride sufficiently competently to continue this state of affairs is another matter altogether...

 

[CJoe]

love your comment on the rider...usually comes down to that.....!!!!!

 

[Cortez]

love your comment on the rider...usually comes down to that.....!!!!!

How're the kittens doing?

 

[CJoe]

?? kittens?? I have no kittens lol.....I have one aged feral cat, the fattest feral in the land......but think you may mean another person!!! xx

 

[Otherwise]

I know what I'd do, but everybody on here would have kittens, and you need to be a very secure rider (like your trainer, probably). This involves a sturdy friend with good timing and a lunge whip....

Yep, I spent a year struggling with a nappy horse, some days even getting into trot was difficult, couldn't hack by myself as he'd get so far and then refuse to go further. Anyone better than me didn't have a problem, he just had my number. One lesson with a new trainer and a lunge whip I had a different horse, in fact the next week I was asked if I'd bought a new one the difference was that big. Only took the once and we didn't even beat him like one person suggested I should.

 

[ihatework]

Yep, I spent a year struggling with a nappy horse, some days even getting into trot was difficult, couldn't hack by myself as he'd get so far and then refuse to go further. Anyone better than me didn't have a problem, he just had my number. One lesson with a new trainer and a lunge whip I had a different horse, in fact the next week I was asked if I'd bought a new one the difference was that big. Only took the once and we didn't even beat him like one person suggested I should.

About 3 months under saddle for my big welsh x (who is actually a kind hearted gentleman), out of nowhere came a big nap. I cajoled and dealt with the first episode and then rode him under pro supervision the next time.

Lunge whip out - timely crack up the jacksy while I held the neckstrap.

We failed to cure it in one ride. It took 3 sessions on the bounce for me to be confident it was sorted. But that’s it, done & dusted.

If we had fannied around we could well have had a huge issue on our hands.

And no he wasn’t beaten or scarred for life!

 

[Otherwise]

About 3 months under saddle for my big welsh x (who is actually a kind hearted gentleman), out of nowhere came a big nap. I cajoled and dealt with the first episode and then rode him under pro supervision the next time.

Lunge whip out - timely crack up the jacksy while I held the neckstrap.

We failed to cure it in one ride. It took 3 sessions on the bounce for me to be confident it was sorted. But that’s it, done & dusted.

If we had fannied around we could well have had a huge issue on our hands.

And no he wasn’t beaten or scarred for life!

It can all go downhill so quickly, that was exactly what I did, I fannied around being soft wishing my horse wanted to work with me, getting upset when told I should sell him to someone who'd beat him and fix him. The one good thing about it all is now I'm a lot more insistent, if I ask a horse to go forwards I'm getting it, I have no wish to be back in that soul destroying place.

 

[mandysk]

Thank you all

 

[maya2008]

If on your own, or on a horse who doesn't like whips, there are two other options.

1) Get off and work from the ground. This works well with sweet horses who lack confidence, or just can't be bothered to go anywhere. In the school - get off and lunge, make the horse do more work than it would otherwise have had to do with you riding. Out hacking, get off and walk. Get back on later, not shortening the hack at all. Same amount of work for the horse, he doesn't 'win'. One of mine, I used to walk out, ride back until she'd got her confidence.

2) Sit and kick, rhythmically and without too much force (just banging your heels on their sides basically and letting them bounce back off), for as long as it takes to make them move. A whip often makes a horse angry (used to make one of mine try to reverse into the traffic - not a plan!). Kicking doesn't. It's really annoying though! Soon as they move, stop. Soon as they stop, start again. I've done this twice, with horses who were nappy but not safe to get on/off out hacking (would twist and spin and run home). First time, it seemed like I was there half an hour with one of them, but every time after it took less time to get moving and she stopped bothering to plant within a few days.

Both of the above methods do not need a physically strong rider, or any help on the ground. I have used both successfully, and the horses they were used on went on to have other, less confident riders but the napping did not reoccur.

 

[milliepops]

I think there are nappers and nappers. And different reasons why horses nap. A horse that previously napped then stopped then started again possibly didn't restart for no reason.

I know you say he's fine medically but I would just review that really critically, I have one that you could ride through her napping when she had ulcers but there were still signs that she wasn't right.

And then think about when he is napping? what, if anything, sets it off? as that might give you some more clues.

My very confirmed napper would have repeatedly ejected me if someone had brought out the lunge whip, she would be happy to start an arms race with bigger naps and bigger whacks! With her there were 2 things that made the difference, 1. getting her to really engage with whatever she was napping about - not letting her zone out and go somewhere else in her head, and 2. being more patient than she was stubborn, and keeping the adrenalin levels low. A bit like (I think) CJoe is suggesting. Getting more and more desperate or kicking and booting just made her plant harder.

Not every horse is like that, many can be quickly snapped out of having a nappy thought particularly if it's a short term problem, but horses for courses IME.

 

[nikkimariet]

I know what I'd do, but everybody on here would have kittens, and you need to be a very secure rider (like your trainer, probably). This involves a sturdy friend with good timing and a lunge whip....

Lol yes!

 

[splashgirl45]

a friend had a pony that started napping badly, someone followed with a lunge whip and he didnt nap. next time rider tried on her own he napped.....he had recently had his hind shoes off and that seems to have been the problem as he was sore and was napping with the weaker rider. she had shoes put back on and he didnt nap again....horses will work through any pain if ridden by a stronger rider so it may be worth checking absolutely everything first....

 

[GreyMane]

"I prefer to chuck a clod of earth or a small stone at the horse's backside, rather than hit him, for any form of nappiness, and this includes rearing"... "so that any pain and anger is coming not from the rider but from someone else".
Henry Blake; (Horse Sense, chapter 13)

After reading this, in my imagination a Thelwell cartoon appeared, with a nappy horse about to be peppered in the posterior by several giggling school children hiding in the bushes with pea shooters!

Have seen similar tactics used while training reluctant loaders, with all movement cues coming from a second person further away, not the person holding the horse.

 

[claret09]

If he is truly blocking, do the opposite of what you should do....DO NOTHING!!! just take any reaction anyway, no leg no nothing, sit like sack of spuds until he is bored...……….if he doesn't do it to your trainer he clearly is taking the mick, but you need to find a way (bearing in mind he is bigger than you and stronger) to surprise him that doesn't involve getting into a battle.....!!! ignoring and waiting it out sometimes works, worth a go!!!! Everyone is so fast to give more leg, try to move them so that they then move their legs, wave a stick, flick the reins etc etc, pat pat pat, totally ignore, no nothing, and patience!!! xxx

totally agree my boy used to plant for England. never bothers now

 

[Alibear]

If he is truly blocking, do the opposite of what you should do....DO NOTHING!!! just take any reaction anyway, no leg no nothing, sit like sack of spuds until he is bored...……….if he doesn't do it to your trainer he clearly is taking the mick, but you need to find a way (bearing in mind he is bigger than you and stronger) to surprise him that doesn't involve getting into a battle.....!!! ignoring and waiting it out sometimes works, worth a go!!!! Everyone is so fast to give more leg, try to move them so that they then move their legs, wave a stick, flick the reins etc etc, pat pat pat, totally ignore, no nothing, and patience!!! xxx

Any suggestions for when you try this approach and are still sat there 2 hours later as darkness draws in with a horse that seems happy as larry watching the world go by? Genuine question from this summer, she is one who will quite happily match you if you chose to escalate things. Usually moving one foot gets her going again but just on occasion I end up stuck fast. My approach in the end was to select reverse gear but it didn't make her any better for the next try.

 

[Red-1]

Any suggestions for when you try this approach and are still sat there 2 hours later as darkness draws in with a horse that seems happy as larry watching the world go by? Genuine question from this summer, she is one who will quite happily match you if you chose to escalate things. Usually moving one foot gets her going again but just on occasion I end up stuck fast. My approach in the end was to select reverse gear but it didn't make her any better for the next try.

I have dome this with a nappy one, but I find it works best for ones that are nappy with energy rather than true cold bloods that will just stand and doze!

When I had that potential issue I would never hack out near darkness, or indeed before work. If ever I did make a mistake I would ring home for someone to ride a bike out, as he would generally follow a bike, OH would come out and cycle slowly past without speaking or interacting with us, and then my go aids became effective.

When it was even earlier in training than that, I would go out with someone on a bike, so they could control the situation and explain why we were sat there to anyone who came along.

I would not exactly do nothing, I would chivvy a bit if they were really switched off. looking round and not trying, but as long as they were looking in the right direction I would leave him to it.

Didn't take long. I have been longer than 2 hours though - to start with!

I would say certainly don't set out doing this if you won't see it through, as by waiting 2 hours and then giving up you have trained the horse to... nap for 2 hours - as this was a successful tactic for him. That will take some undoing.

 

[milliepops]

agree with everything Red says. I found I was running short of time so in the end I got a freelance to come and help me. She did the hours of patient out-napping mine, because otherwise I couldn't get the other 2 ridden and do my full time job. I agree that you can't let them sit and snooze, that's what I was getting at with my earlier post, they have to engage with the situation. It's a bit like tricky loaders that stand at the bottom of the ramp, looking and thinking about other things.. they have to be switched on to the task.
I had no other back up so took the long reins out whenever I hacked alone, if we got stuck and I needed to unstick her quickly then i would pop them on and long rein her home, same effect as Red with the bike.

 

[Alibear]

Yeah she didn't get away with it as we reversed in the direction I wanted to go until I could spin her round and she kept going then, but she's done it again since so not a fix. She's also been fine since its just odd days where she stops, most odd as no particular point apart from its always in the first half of a hack never the 2nd half. It looks like we're due for a long period of hacking for some rehab and I could do without having to prep for a 2 hour wait each time! She would indeed plant at the bottom of the trailer ramp but we solved that with a lot of in hand work and a spinny rope Tried Spinny rope/ whip wop whilst ridden and yeah back the escalation point! I think I'll have to knuckle down and concentrate on it for a while , I may recruit some help.
She never stops with company be it equine or human and even a dog is usually enough to mean she'll get going quickly again if she does stop. But entirely all by ourselves and Mrs Nappy can appear and even the farm gator buzzing past doesn't get her shifting.

 

[milliepops]

It can be really hard to unpick. My nappy one would even nap in company, leaving the other horse striding along and it was like she was glued to the spot. She's happy to walk out in front now, go figure.

 

[CJoe]

Any suggestions for when you try this approach and are still sat there 2 hours later as darkness draws in with a horse that seems happy as larry watching the world go by? Genuine question from this summer, she is one who will quite happily match you if you chose to escalate things. Usually moving one foot gets her going again but just on occasion I end up stuck fast. My approach in the end was to select reverse gear but it didn't make her any better for the next try.

Always allow plenty of time, 2 hours is nothing!!!! my chap managed a 4 hour session....just the once, he has never done it again!!! xx The previous napster was retrained, again doing nothing, if we were still there for over an hour, I wouldn't speak to him, acknowledge him or anything, just hopped off walked for 10 minutes, no eye contact, walking forward in hand, then hop (or clamber!) back on, continue. If he napped again, repeat. Gradually going forward became the norm, we never went back the way we came, always ensure circular routes. The hopping off became less until it became necessary no more.....

 

[oldie48]

TBH I think every horse is different and sometimes you just need to try different things to find what works best. We had two nappy horses, they were both quite young and I think were just testing the boundaries. my daughter was rider and she cured one by dealing with a spin by going backwards until the horse decided it was easier to go forwards, the other she sat out as he could get really worked up if she took him on. In hindsight, a lunge whip would have sorted them both quite quickly A third horse we failed with, bought for me he showed signs of nappiness but nothing I couldn't handle until we moved him so he was with just one other horse, then it went very rapidly downhiill to the point of being downright dangerous. He had huge issues with separation anxiety and needed a better rider than I was to get him through it. Sold at a loss to someone who kept him on a big professional yard, he was much happier and we saw him a couple of times, once out hunting with the bloodhounds and once doing a pairs HT. New owner loved him and I have to admit, in company he was a complete angel and the safest horse I've ever ridden, on his own, well that was a different story!