Please Can You Help Us - Moody Mare trouble.

[Essex Maverick]

Hi everyone, feel a bit of a fraud coming on here and making my first post a cry for help but I am out of ideas.

After 2 years of working for nothing at a yard, then 1 year of loaning, I was finally convinced by by daughter that she must have a Pony of her own. She had put in the long yards so agreed, and after a lot of scrimping, and saving, and a fair few lifestyle changes we took the plunge and she bought the Pony of her dreams (aan 8 yr old Irish x) ...it aced the vetting, and after a bit of wheeling and dealing was stabled at her new home.

First two weeks were just like when we met her, she was calm, friendly, quiet, and not a single bad bone or vice in her body.
The last 2 weeks have been getting worse by the day. She is now very unsettled on the yard, bites when you pass her, and has now started to drag my daughter around when she brings her in for the night.
She still has no problem going in the ménage, but is now starting to become difficult to canter, and is getting very strong willed when she does not want to do something and now pulls away from jumps she breezed over a few weeks back.

Some background, she came over from Ireland 6 months ago, and has come from a very good source who could not fault her. She was on Haylage before, but we now give her normal hay...plus a very small handful of Happy Hoof at night (might this be seen as a treat and a problem??). She grazes all day with the other ponies and has no issues with them. She has had her teeth done, re-shoed, vacs done, and be re-checked by the vet recently who gave a big thumbs up (albeit before she got naughty).

This has been the most harrowing of all her riding experiences, and has shattered her childhood dream of owning her own Pony, and is in bits. It might seem like not a big deal, and really might all be easily correctable, but we are not a Horse background family, so find it hard to really know what to do. My daughter has spent the last year with a very difficult mare on loan, so we saw this as her salvation. We just want to get back that lovable pony we bought a month ago.

 

[chestnut cob]

Is your daughter having regular lessons? Where are you keeping the pony (at home, livery yard etc)? How confident is your daughter?

I think a lot of horses go through something like this while they are settling in and getting used to new handlers. Does anyone else handle the pony and how is she with them? Is she stabled at night on her own or with company (other horses in stables she can see)? I wonder if the pony is maybe feeling a bit unsettled and hasn't learned to trust your daughter so is playing up a bit. It can take time to get used to a new horse and no one ever has the fairy tale all of the time. It doesn't sound like you've had the pony long, I would stop the jumping for now, concentrate on lots of flatwork lessons and get your daughter hacking out the pony so they get to know each other. Ponies can be a bit naughty sometimes with younger/ smaller or less confident kids if they think they can get way with it! You could try getting a bigger, older and more experienced child on for a few sessions, see how the pony is then.

 

[Essex Maverick]

Thanks for the quick response, I can answer all the above.
My daughter has lessons every week, and although only 13 has a mass of confidence.She has been bucked, thrown, been out of control on spooked horses but gets straight back on. If there was a horse no-one wanted to ride, she would ride it. As mentioned her loan was a horse that every one shied away from, and she made great strides with her.
Everyone we meet is very complimentary on her riding, when viewing to buy they all commented on how calm and quiet she rode, soft hands and a very soothing manner.
Yes, we have not had her for long, guess I might be panicking a bit early, but the change was quite dramatic I wondered if this was normal. I had been warned they can change when moved (she is stabled at a yard where my daughter has ridden her loan for the last year) but assumed this would have been in the first few weeks, not the later ones. She is in at night on her own, but other horses in next stable. We fitted a mirror before she arrived to give her some 'company' that she really likes. Other people do handle her from time to time, no real difference, similar attitude.
She settled in very quickly and was an angel at first.
I like your idea of hacking her out more to get them to know one another more, we have plenty of off road hacking available...and will stop the jumping for now. I guess like every parent we just want our kids to be happy...and wanted to nip this before it escalated.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Hang on in there and give things time - I also bought 13yr old daughter her first pony who was unsettled and naughty at first - we have given him time to settle into new surroundings and routine - had expert help and guidance (mainly to reassure me I hadn't misjudged the pony totally) and daughter has spent time on the ground and in stable getting to know him...confidence is very important. She trusted him so much she took him to her first show a month ago and he was a star- its taken 7 months.

 

[be positive]

Mares can be a bit moody, many like to let you know they are in charge, I had one that hated being looked at by other horses so was not happy in an American barn type of situation she liked her privacy especially at feeding time.
Yours biting when you go past is showing signs of being unhappy in her environment, do people go past a lot to get to the feed room or tackroom, this could be winding her up if she is used to being on a private yard with less going on and a set routine, any unsettled behaviour in the stable will show when ridden as they are getting generally stressed, if possible see if you can find a box where she is not seeing people walk past her too often.
Could she live out for now, she would be able to have a few months to really settle down before the weather changes and she may need to come in, it may help her relax and give your daughter time to get to know her and gain more confidence.
Last thought is she getting enough hay to keep her occupied all night, she could be hungry if she runs out overnight, the other suggestions of taking your time etc are good, it does take a while to get a partnership established no need to rush and try too hard.

 

[Essex Maverick]

I really appreciate all the advice, it helps a LOT knowing it's not uncommon. A few people have said the same about leaving out over night, but the yard owner will not allow it, the policy is always a minimum 2 horses in each field at any one time (so they don't get stressed and have company???).
She was overweight when we bought her, and have tried to be sympathetic with the feed, without over doing it. We got a lot of advice from others on not trying to slim her down too quickly..but it's hard when you are owning for the first time to know exactly what is right and wrong.

 

[be positive]

If you want her to lose some weight without reducing the quantity of hay if you soak it for up to 12 hours that will reduce the sugars so becomes just a filler with limited calorific value, you will probably then need to top up het vitamin and mineral intake by giving a balanced supplement but it will help with weight loss and stop her from feeling hungry.
It may be that ultimately you need to look for another yard, not all yards suit all horses, being able to stay out 24/7 at least in summer can make a huge difference to how relaxed a horse is, all mine live out as much as possible, better for them and much less work for me, I have had horses arrive that were supposedly stressy but turned out they changed for the better, usually then being more than happy to be in once the weather changes, it just allows them to become settled to all the new things going on without being shut in for at least 12 hours every day.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I haven't read all the replies but - take her off the Happy Hoof - it is an alfalfa chaff which disagrees with many mares. Alfalfa contains phyto-oestrogens, which can cause a hormone imbalance. Give her 3 weeks to get it out of her system, although you will probably see a difference in her behaviour before then.

 

[Essex Maverick]

Happy hoof sacked off....will let you know if she improves on that one ..thanks

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I hope that solves your problem and would be really interested to hear how you get on.

I am always very conscious of the way food can affect our horses, as I had a TBxWelsh mare who had severe behaviour problems which we eventually found were caused by her reaction to feed.

 

[Essex Maverick]

10 days in and getting worse The biting has now reached the stage where my daughter refuses to go near her- kind of defeating the object of owning!)
Sadly she has not been able to go into the field due to a splint injury, so I wonder if she is getting the right amount of feed to substitute her grazing....how many haynets would replace a good doer's days grazing? This might be compounding the problem as it does seem to be food related.
If we could cure the biting, the rest we could work round I am sure. Any further suggestions would be most welcome.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm sorry the change in food didn't work.
Are you saying that the mare is now on box-rest? If so this will explain her behaviour, even the most well-mannered, settled horses can get fed-up and stroppy on when confined to the stable. Would your vet allow her to be out in a small field pen?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I am surprised she dropped a splint at this age and I assume not getting a lot of work. Most unfortunate.

I suggest you [with daughter] ring up the vet and have a chat with him about this behaviour, he may have some ideas, they usually offer advice with not extra charge.

Without someone experienced seeing the mare and helping with hands on training, it is very difficult to know what is going on.

Things to consider:

Routine
Many ponies are better out 24/7 than stabled, and I think that may be a long term solution.
Work routine, we are all guilty of being too enthusiastic with animals, the mare is probably unsettled, and it is possible that your daughter has rushed things, by this I mean repeatedly doing the same things rather than going along slowly. An instructor should discuss the warm up and the cool down and the "work" part of every session. I often see girls out in the arena day after day they do exactly the same thing, neither horse nor rider are really thinking things through, so ask the instructor to discuss these things as well as just riding tips.
Keep most things in a routine day to day, for a while at least.

Feed
Feed ............. no molasses [eg likits], molassed chaff. No carrots or apples or other sugary treats.
No alfalfa.
Trickle feed forage, she should not be standing without something to eat for long.
Soak hay .......... for at least an hour, soak by immersion then rinse off this is to remove sugars. Unfortunately this soaking will also remove minerals so you may need to buy some.
Do not feed pony cubes with molasses [ moglo] or cereals. ....
Fast Fibre is a relatively cheap source of minerals, phone up the help line of Allen and Page and ask for their advice.
Small dessertspoon of salt.

It is difficult to advise that you get an experienced friend, as you would have already gone this route if it was available.
I would think about her stable, is there one which she might prefer, I am not clear if she is isolated, or has horses alongside, is there a view of outside?

 

[Essex Maverick]

Firstly, many thanks to those that have taken the time to respond to this. It is good to come on here and get some sound constructive advice, as where we are I get a lot of advice, sadly a lot of it conflicting...which ends up just making your head spin.

Firstly the splint issue. The vet took a look during his last visit, and advised there was no big problem, but she must have knocked it on something as it was warm but not troubling her too much. We hosed it off morning and night, just walked her round the menage for 15 mins x 2 a day under his instruction, and he also put her on butes for a few days. She was in a turnout for the box rest, only a small non grass enclosure, but she was at least not shut away.
He said she would be OK to compete today, as she was due her first dressage event (only intro so no cantering involved). It was a 10 minute drive so no stress, and she loaded well. However, to combat the nipping we had a haynet constantly on the go, before the event and during journey. She was fizzy tacking up but settled well in the warm up. She aced the event and came 2nd out of 23 with over 70%...which made all the previous troubles mellow away. Daughter happy...chuffed at her result. We then turned her out properly in the afternoon, as it was raining none of the other horses were out with her (she had company in the next field though). She was calm, got straight down to grazing, and when we came back a few hours later came straight up to us, and followed us onto the yard a quiet as a mouse. She then settled on her evening haynet, and you could see she was not 'attacking' it like she had been. She even pulled away from it, and nuzzled up to my daughter...NO Biting...! Different pony, and back to how she was when we viewed her. I really hope this is the key to it...as most of you have intimated - it is food related it would seem...she had a good feed today, and the problems went away. We have been giving her a scoop of Spillers light balancer, instead of the Happy hoof...and this seems to have helped too. We left the yard today thinking perhaps we have turned the corner. Early doors, but at least the root cause might have been confirmed, we now just need to balance this all up.

 

[Essex Maverick]

I would think about her stable, is there one which she might prefer, I am not clear if she is isolated, or has horses alongside, is there a view of outside?

She is stabled at the end of a run, she has company next door, and has a view outside onto the yard, and woods behind. She is not allowed out 24/7 unfortunately.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Fantastic update, OP.
The other thing to check is that her tack fits perfectly, some horses can be very sensitive to even slight pinching/rubbing.
I bought my current mare with her tack, I had been told that she threatened/bit when being tacked up. When I looked at her tack properly at home, it was obvious that neither saddle nor bridle fitted properly - the brow-band was too short. It took several months for her to be confident that her new tack fitted properly and wouldn't hurt her as I put it on. She soon told me when her saddle became uncomfortable again - she is now on her 3rd saddle, as she has changed shape as she has lost weight.

 

[soft touch]

Just a thought. Has she been in season whist being difficult? My mare is a total witch both to handle and ride when in season. Worthwhile keeping a diary to see if there is any pattern that coincides with her hormonal changes.

 

[LaurenBay]

I would stop the Happy Hoof. It's actually quite sugary.

If you must feed something then Allen and Page Fast Fibre is brilliant. No sugar and they seem to love it.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I keep a grumpy cob mare on Dodson and Horrell's Stroppy Mare herb mix all year round. Works nicely. She nips with her ears forward !

 

[Essex Maverick]

Just a thought. Has she been in season whist being difficult? My mare is a total witch both to handle and ride when in season. Worthwhile keeping a diary to see if there is any pattern that coincides with her hormonal changes.

Yes! She is 'spraying' a fair deal whenever near the Geldings...and does try to show a fair deal when passing them. Others have mentioned this might not be helping. She has now taken to rearing up when out on a hack...which is the last thing we wanted as it only adds to my daughter not wanting to get back on her.
I think it might be a long winter...of trial and error.

 

[Kittyk]

My mare can be very moody, better out of season but can be dire when she is in season. I have had some success with a supplement like Moody Mare, so maybe worth trying that.
I am no expert on feed but I would possibly feed the most basic of chaff/fibre rather than anything else, I have to be very careful with what I feed otherwise my horse can be extremely difficult to ride. I think I read she was fed haylege where you bought her and you've continued? I'd probably cut to half and half with hay or all hay.
Def echo the above and get her tack checked.
Don't feel disillusioned yet, settling in usually takes 6 months! You sound like you're really committed to finding what the issue is, I hope things improve quickly for your daughter (and you, I'm not sure my nerves could take it if my daughter wants a pony!).
Also there is no substitute for really good help, not just lessons but help with ground work etc especially with a pony that's being a bit challenging.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Hi Essex maverick - just caught up with the thread -fabulous about the show - when your daughter feels anxious ask her to recall the joy and confidence her show performance gave her. I agree with all the great advice folk have offered to you and am sorry pony has now found another trick to try you with...but persevere it is still really early days for the partnership - calm consistent handling and make sure daughter has a neck strap she can hold on to if she feels she needs to. My daughters pony reared once on a hack when an older friend rode him - she was sending go on messages with holding him back and left him with no where to go with his frustration. I got on straight away and he relaxed and all was well.

 

[Kylara]

With the food situation I would recommend finding a nutritionist who can come out and assess her. Also I would recommend if you are on haylage go for the high fibre haylage as this has less sugars in it (usually second cut) and you can be a bit more liberal with this. Also if she gets through it too quickly get a net with smaller holes in so it takes her longer.
Nut balls are also good to keep them occupied in stalls but make sure you have a low energy fibre nut so she doesn't "fizz up".
Try for as much turnout as possible and maybe take her for a walk in hand eveyr so often. She is in a new environment with people she is only just getting to know and she may be wary of hacking out. With you on the ground she might be a little calmer. Go out for short positive rides/hacks to build her and your daughter's confidence.
Mares in season often change temperament drastically - a LR pony I know throws bucks when in season and is generally a bolsh and rude but is an angel when she isn't in season! There are supplements you can get for mares as well.
With the biting it might be due to people walking past her door too close and/or incorrect treating. I did a post on another thread (mini shelty) about retraining biting/nipping so I'll try and find it rather than write it out again! It is quite long, but might help

 

[Kylara]

Sorry for the double post! Found the post I wrote on another thread on retraining biting/nipping -> http://goo.gl/8ybOn3 Hope it helps

 

[Essex Maverick]

Sorry for the double post! Found the post I wrote on another thread on retraining biting/nipping -> http://goo.gl/8ybOn3 Hope it helps

Amazing how all this makes sense when explained. The treats have gone completely for now, and thankfully now she has been back to grazing, and we seem to have her food regulated, she has been excellent...no biting at all.
We are going to get one of the experienced girls to hack her out, just to see if my daughters body language could be sending the wrong messages when out, as she is definitely more tense now...small steps, but we will get there.

 

[Kylara]

Thanks, hope it helps!

That's good understanding is so important, I always recommend thinking "what if it was me?" and being sympathetic - there is usually a reason for the action If you get angry just walk away! Calm down and try again

Also have you tried hacking her out with another horse? She may not like being out on her own for the moment and a chilled horse can help a lot Good luck!

 

[Essex Maverick]

Just a bit of an update on this, thank you all for the sound advice.
We no longer have a Moody Mare She is no angel 24/7, but way way better than when I cried out for help. She gets a bit grumpy if she is hungry, but then again who doesn't!
She is now hacking out again, and even road walking with confidence. She is still not happy hacking on her own, that is when she gets very spooky, but with other horses she has a great time. I am sure the hacking alone will come with trust, but for now small steps but at least we are going in the right direction !
Thanks again

 

[Pearlsasinger]

That is excellent news!

 

[minnieminster1]

I have had the same problem. When I first got my 13.2 h was a sweet lovely pony. However after a couple of weeks he was bolting back to any horse nearby. This would just happen all of a sudden. He is getting better but still has a turn. I have been to events over the summer holidays. One a fell off twice another he bolted back, but I didn't cry I got back on and had another go. Tell your daughter that she is not the only one. I thought my pony is a dream and he is we just need to communicate and trust each over.

Whenever possible groom her. I have weekly riding lessons and these really help. You can not be afraid though. Make sure you end on a good note. If you fall off get back on and until you do what you want you are not going to finish. Eventually she will give in and get bored. However do not do the same thing all the time. Make sure she has fun maybe do some gymkhana games and then flat work the jumping all on different days. Remember they only need to behave for you fo roughly an hour a day.

I am now used as a crash pilot.

I hope this helps you

Good luck

Minnieminster1