Please help if you can

Mrs Jingle

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I have posted above explaining my position. It's about the dog(s).
If you are unable to see how damn rude and offensive GDG is to post on here today that they have been having private messages with you and other members discussing me then I despair. That is one of the most arrogant and revealing posts I have ever seen from any forum member on H&H - and that is saying something! As you seem to feel that is quite OK to do that to another forum member, not the PM but the audacious and clearly offensive decision to broadcast openly on the thread that is what you are doing, and that I am clearly quite ignorant and wrong to choose advice of others both on here and IRL, rather than yours and GDG's, then you really do need to give your head a wobble.

I have made it abundantly clear I do appreciate all input, even that I do not agree with. On balance, and using advice we have been given on here and IRL we are going with the safe containment plan for now. The fact I have not chosen what either you, GDG or your other chums might have suggested is not to to insult you or anyone else - it is merely my choice based on my knowledge of this particular dog and its particular issue.

If I do end up having to get my little lab PTS then at least you and GDG and the rest can enjoy patting yourselves on the back via pm, gloating at how right you were, how you could all have 'changed' this dog and how wrong I am to take the containment path forward.
 

CorvusCorax

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I apologise if I have upset you, I wasn't questioning your choices or implying you didn't know what you are doing, just trying to throw the kitchen sink at the issue, IME a fresh pair of eyes is never a bad thing but I understand yet again that I was sticking my oar in where it wasn't wanted. Your thread is called 'please help if you can' and that is all I was attempting to do. I would never take any pleasure in or gloat over the death of anyone's dog and I have cried over the deaths of dogs of people on this forum that I have never met and never will. Some of them can't be fixed and I know this must be very hard for your family as it has been for mine in the past, best of luck, whatever happens.
 
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I think I will let my son go ahead with the planned refencing (when he decides exactly which to go with) and then if that isn't working I will go for this option you suggest. I cant seem to find any idea online of costs involved in laying the wire, cost of the collar and receiver, which system would suit best etc. so I will give the UK company a ring during the week. It does not sound as harsh as the zap collar and also I like the idea it gives them a warning sound within a certain distance of the fence line. Thank you
Re the electric invisible boundary warning beeper zapper thing - costly and didn't work on a mate's Vizla. We ran electric fencing inside the natural hedge and a couple of zaps dissuaded her successfully. However, your dog sounds like a nuclear grade runner. I wouldn't invest in an expensive deterrent without a thorough trial.
 

Mrs Jingle

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I think things being discussed by pm is pretty normal, so I wouldn’t stress about it. It’s just that no one normally mentions they have taken place.
I agree totally Clodagh and I do not have issue with that. I do have issue with it being happily bandied about on the thread that I and my dog and my decisions are being discussed privately and found lacking. Ergo they are right and I am wrong, fine but why bring your pms to other members into the thread at all what was the intent by doing so?

Thats fine but at least have the balls to post openly your opinions rather than tittle tattle privately and then gleefully post back on the thread to alert forum members that you are all discussing this privately and agreeing how hopeless I and my decisions to try and help my dog are.

I think bringing private messages onto a thread is extremely poor form and very, very rude to the member you are discussing and their thread. But yes, I daresay I am being sensitive about this, but I do actually feel extremely sensitive about the whole problem and to be vilified because I choose to go with some suggestions and not others is damned unnecessary, and I did state over and over I appreciate all ideas even if I do not agree with them. What do these self righteous experts want - blood and public tears and self recrimination from me?
 

rara007

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A lot resonates with my failed trialing springer. Many local dog trainers enclosed fields have seen his heels including the most boring tennis court you can imagine and our local abilities brand new stock fenced area. He’s snapped lunge lines we use on the horses running. Now- 4 years down the line- at home he’s 99% reliable- he’s not run off in over 2 years but I’ll never say 100%. We still put the long line on if the walk before he was getting a bit wide. However, he is never given ‘free rein’. Even in our home fields (30 acres, semi secure) he’s working and training whilst off lead, or on a long line. He loves still doing his gundog stuff even though in the process of getting him focused back on me we lost any sense of steadiness, is generally in the top shake up in fun scurries and 100% focused even in the middle of a county show, is an unfaultable CaniX dog (but has 2 lines on if running with anyone not me) is a terror at agility but loves running and jumping just not the half halting and listening. But any time we’re not at home he’s on a longline or lead. He sleeps 23 hours a day it seems and is perfectly content- but can not be trusted with ‘free time’ outdoors even in supposed secure fields. He has a tiny courtyard at the back of the house for toileting with a stone base and fence posts dug down with the gap under the gate bricked. He’s a decent size springer but the gaps he’ll navigate are tiny! He knocks metal 5 bar gates off their hinges going under them.
Have you tried recall training her to a moving animal skin tug? In my experience (only 1 dog!) that’s the end of any soft mouth but if it gives her the chase she’s after and attaches her to you in the process so you can put a lead on maybe worth it. Craig Oglivie/Absolutedogs style.

Good luck...!

eta I know you’re not happy about a dog always being on a lead but with Houdini harnesses and long lines I don’t think that it is as restrictive as you think- for the dog! It’s a pita if you want to enjoy social dog walks around the woods but we’ve come to an agreement about his routine and that doesn’t include expecting him to enjoy anything other than hunting and running. Mine certainly doesn’t miss off lead time when we’re away- it’s always full steam ahead hunting but with the security that if he goes too far he’s not leaving and if I miss his body language that he’s bored of that game he’s not going to show the perimeter of the estate his dummy.
 
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Mrs Jingle

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rara007 thank you SO much for that post. Everything you are saying is almost 100 per cent the same conclusion about Jessie that my friend (the FT guy) has said to me. No, it has never been suggested to try the animal skin tug but does sound vey much something that would appeal to her for sure! I should look into that further into the Craig Oglivie/Absolutedogs style

The difference is from real life and online advice, you are telling me a very positive outcome, even if our attempts to safely contain her do not work, that we can still ensure she has a very happy and active lifestyle, which she very obviously needs. As you describe it, it can be possible to keep her and neighbouring stock safe while still allowing her to have some great craic on a daily basis.

I have no experience of working with 2 longlines either, just one, so today I shall look into that too.

I cannot tell you how much your post has cheered me up, and given me the much needed 'lift' to not despair and to find other ways around the problem even if this new fence does not work. I do not want Jessie to just be 'alive' for my benefit, i.e a miserable and depressed existence because I cannot cope with losing her, I want her life to be as fulfilled, happy and just enjoying her existence as I can possibly make it. I think we owe that to any animal we take responsibility for.

Thanks you so much again, I am now feeling cautiously more optimistic about her future and have lots to research today as obviously I know little or nothing about gun dog training, but I can try and incorporate that into the activities and games I already do with her. Just of to M&S to buy an animal skin tug! 😉😂

Maisie thank you very much for that link - it is in fact, very similar to the longer ones a friend made for us - but as someone else pointed out, once she has left the ground she will not get a shock anyway. We are probably going for the top roller bar system with the new outer fence. Thanks though I do appreciate it.
 

maisie06

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rara007 thank you SO much for that post. Everything you are saying is almost 100 per cent the same conclusion about Jessie that my friend (the FT guy) has said to me. No, it has never been suggested to try the animal skin tug but does sound vey much something that would appeal to her for sure! I should look into that further into the Craig Oglivie/Absolutedogs style

The difference is from real life and online advice, you are telling me a very positive outcome, even if our attempts to safely contain her do not work, that we can still ensure she has a very happy and active lifestyle, which she very obviously needs. As you describe it, it can be possible to keep her and neighbouring stock safe while still allowing her to have some great craic on a daily basis.

I have no experience of working with 2 longlines either, just one, so today I shall look into that too.

I cannot tell you how much your post has cheered me up, and given me the much needed 'lift' to not despair and to find other ways around the problem even if this new fence does not work. I do not want Jessie to just be 'alive' for my benefit, i.e a miserable and depressed existence because I cannot cope with losing her, I want her life to be as fulfilled, happy and just enjoying her existence as I can possibly make it. I think we owe that to any animal we take responsibility for.

Thanks you so much again, I am now feeling cautiously more optimistic about her future and have lots to research today as obviously I know little or nothing about gun dog training, but I can try and incorporate that into the activities and games I already do with her. Just of to M&S to buy an animal skin tug! 😉😂

Maisie thank you very much for that link - it is in fact, very similar to the longer ones a friend made for us - but as someone else pointed out, once she has left the ground she will not get a shock anyway. We are probably going for the top roller bar system with the new outer fence. Thanks though I do appreciate it.
I would attach several lines of electric to the perimeter starting at 12" going all the way up in 12" increments, she'll get a belt off the first couple and hopefully ;leave it alone assuming she sort of ladder scales the fence if that makes sense?

Please let us know how you get on.
 

Mrs Jingle

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Thank you ester - boy I wish I had my new hips right now I would be off canicrossing with her this very afternoon lol!
 

rara007

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A few pictures of him demonstrating a life contained is ok! Yes I just double lead him if someone else is running with him (he does 5 min miles with a running club blokes- they come to pick him up to take him and drop him home!). I also double lead him at service stations as you wouldn’t believe how many rabbits live next to the motorway...! He doesn’t get as much time out as yours do but it’s always doing something, never just ‘walking’. ‘Walking’ does nothing for him other than spike the adrenaline with no outlet.
 

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Mrs Jingle

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Gorgeous dog Rara007.

I had looked into at least doing much more when actually taking her out on the longer daily walk before and had thought the idea of intermittent jogging with her attached to my waist would be perfect even as a starting point. But unfortunately my hips and back have declined so rapidly since the accident I cannot risk having her attached to me from the waist in anyway and I am not capable of much more than a short amble at the moment......but I guess a bonus if I got pulled over would be shattering both hips completely and get my 2 hips done immediately lol! (Joke!)

The son that is helping me has muttered about getting fitter, I might suggest something along these lines (pardon pun) to him on her longer walks with him. Unfortunately my other son who lives at home is partially disabled so not able to help in any of the physical stuff so I am trying not to push too much on the one person doing all the work for me. I will wait until he has finished the new fence and then try and point him in that direction.

ps - love the one going over the bales best of all....those ears.....definitely in full flight there! 😁
 

paddy555

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Gorgeous dog Rara007.

....but I guess a bonus if I got pulled over would be shattering both hips completely and get my 2 hips done immediately lol! (Joke!)
that idea is not entirely without merit. Aunt fell over (accident) 2 days later new hip had been fitted. Job done before she had time to think. Not the brightest time to do it in the middle of COVID but got to the top of the NHS list quickly :D:D:D:D:D (joke)

be interesting to see how the roller bars work if you go that way.
 
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How glad I am to see some positivity - I can't really help because I have no experience of this behaviour problem but I do understand the separate types of anguish of both parties and especially that of the oneg soley responsible for finding a complete and satisfactory solution!

Good luck. Also, as Jessie ages this MUST reduce in intensity?

Rara's pictures brought in mind this...


Off to Google stuff mentioned in thread.
 

Moobli

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It is obvious how much this little dog means to you (and she looks beautiful) so you need to consider managing her behaviour if the new fencing doesn't work, rather than eliminating it completely. Tug E Nuff sell some brilliant rabbit skin tug toys, and have a look at flirt poles - they are brilliant for exercising a prey-driven dog, as well as training some impulse control (obviously in a safe area or on a long line so she can't disappear if a more interesting scent takes her fancy). If your son wants to get fit, definitely encourage him to run with her canicross style, or how about scootering, ski-jor or bike-joring with her?

https://tug-e-nuff.co.uk/products/rabbit-skin-chaser-tug

https://www.zukes.com/dog-blog/dog-sports-to-try-skijoring-and-bikejoring/

There are some breeds, such as huskies, that can never really be safely let off lead and so it is a question of finding an activity that gives them plenty of exercise without the total freedom to make a run for it and go self-employed.

If the new fencing doesn't work, could you also look at fencing a smaller area with a roof, so she has a safe pen in which to spend some time outdoors but it isn't the place that is used for her exercise - that can come from the activities mentioned above. I honestly think just because she can't be safely let off lead doesn't mean it is a death sentence. If you are super vigilant that she doesn't escape from either her fenced area, or a new pen if it comes to that, spend time with her every day with the flirt pole, retrieve training, scentwork - anything she enjoys that gets her brain working, and then if you can employ your son in taking the strain of the physical exercise, at least until you are fit again, then I don't see why she can't live a long, happy and fulfilled life.

How old is she, out of interest? If all else fails, you could also speak to your local police dog section, who love driven dogs like her for specialist search training. Better having that chance than PTS.

I really hope you manage to find a system that works for you and that you can keep her safe, as she sounds a little gem.
 

SusieT

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there is a massive difference I'm afraid between a working gun dog trainer being suitable for a difficult dog (they often aren't as actually most of the time dogs are not being 'worked' but kennelled) , an elderly household relying on children/adult children to actively engage dog and a 'agility/flyball/canicross focused home' so I'm afraid I can absolutely see how your home would not work out for this dog hence my above suggestion. I think the suggestion that she be pts simply because you, who by your own admission are frail owners, or a working gundog owner who by your own admission wanted to make money from the dog - aren't the right home if you can't contain her /won't lead walk is not a fair one. Clearly I haven't met the dog but I have met many elderly owners struggling with active dogs even though they perecieve they are good dog handlers/have lots of 'space' and walk 'daily' - but actually the dog needs a home where there is anobsessive activity focused person focused on them . And I can see the same patterns in your post descriptions . I hope you are able to find a fencing solution which works
 

Mrs Jingle

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Update. So many of you kindly took the time to respond to my problems with Jessie I thought you might like an update. Unfortunately within 48 hours of my original post I was Blue lighted into hospital and kept there for a week - fortunately nothing serious just a very unwise mix of medications given to me by my GP (I now google interactions of any meds prescribed by GP or hospital - I trust nobody!)

Every cloud has a silver lining, while I was in there my son and my husband completely refenced the half acre paddock behind the house, raising the height considerably, incorporating an overhang and pinning the bottom of the fence underground just to be sure no burrowing escape attempts were made!

I am delighted to say we now have a very,very happy little dog, she has checked every inch of the fencing visually but not one attempt to actually scale it or push under it. The family tell me while I was away she checked the top of the fence line every time she went out there, giving the new overhang a very good inspection and obviously decided it was quits lol! For the first 2 weeks they were never left alone, just in case. But we can now happily let them race around acting the maggot and generally having a great time.

They still get taken out by my son with Jem off lead on our own land but Jessie still on the extendable lead, and my husband still takes them around the fields every morning to check the herdlet for me. She is no longer looking for any attempt to run after anything within sight or sound, and actually they both seem much more tired now they also get all that freedom to act the eejits out in their 'safe' paddock. Many hours are spent snoring on the sofa lol! We will never allow her off lead anywhere except the safe paddock at the house, but she seems much happier and more settled now she has that freedom every day, for as long as she chooses.

I have great plans for her next spring/summer, by then both hips should be replaced, I will be getting my riding horse back from my friend so that will help with regaining my fitness level, and if these covid restrictions are eased I intend to enrol her and I in a bit of formal agility training, and possibly if she is as good as I suspect she will be, and my new bionic hips work as well as they tell me they will maybe get a bit competitive lol!

Thank you again so much for those with genuine thoughts and ideas to help. Not so much to those who had me and my family written off as either too old and feeble or just too plain stupid to be able to keep a dog at all! Thankfully you were wrong. Jessie is safe and we are all delighted and privileged to have her and Jem as part of our lives.
 
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splashgirl45

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i have been reading this thread and just seen your update..now you can have her loose every day so her quality of life should be fine, well done to the whole family for working so hard. a note on the freedom fence, friend had a collie with a hunting instinct and kept disappearing so friend spent quite a bit on money, did the training required, and it kept her in for a week, we put a camera on the yard and saw that she walked round the perimeter and then suddenly spun and galloped flat out through it, her hunting instinct overcame any zap she got and she had worked out exactly what to do...dogs can be so clever and i think yours would have done similar.. so pleased you have found a way to keep her (and you) happy:)
 
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