PLEASE Help Leaping, Bucking...Lazy, Spooky

[arizonalover1]

Hey everyone! This is going to be a long one but I hope not to miss anything! Please bear with me, advice would be lovely.
So 5 months ago we got a new horse. he’s a 14yo WB gelding. 1.30 Jumper, Been there, done that, been to all the big shows ect! However, he had 2 injuries that stopped that career, he fully recovered, still jumps about 4’ and then we got him!
When we got him in he was pretty out of shape because he had sat for a few months
We got him back in shape, great horse, super athletic, sweet & goofy
Yet, when we first started getting him back into work we had always noticed that making him move forward = Angry Reaction.
He was so lazy that anything besides a tiny trot at his will would piss him off, let alone ask for a canter, he would just stop moving. Sometimes he would leap out of frustration if you would make him. Got past that issue! He’s a lot more forward now but still has his days (If anyone has training tips for this please let me know! well try anything. He walk trot canters now but has his days when he will be very sucked back, hates going forward.) Our solution was leg means forward, put your leg on, he should go. if he doesn’t, cluck at him, if he doesn’t, light tap with the whip. and increase these when he still doesn’t react, praise once he goes forward/moves out. We switched to dressage for the last two months to work on his forwardness and it’s seemed to help a lot!
But now, there’s a somewhat new problem. We had always noticed he is very looky, ears always perked and forward, ADHD like. He never really spooked though. Now, he’s quite spooky. On one end of the arena everything fascinates and scared him (to be fair, it’s an open field, however he’s been there for the last 5 months and used to be fine with it) I don’t take him down that side anymore unless i’m on foot. His spook is a buck, bolt, leap spin or rear. No fun, i’m not the bravest rider so it wouldn’t be the best for me to deal with, so my trainer does. On foot i head over there and feed him cookies to make the area more positive. An example of his spookiness would be, were hard at work, we cantered around and in the middle of a lead change (literal mid swap) he spots something, rears up, spins around and bucks. Another example would be just a person walking by, a pole on the ground...The other day for example, We were cantering around, my trainer put up a pole. He freaks out and lets out a huge buck. - how we deal with it is Tell them hey, that was bad ( for example a bump on the rein ) and then continue to work, and make them work harder than before. For a 14 year old ex 1.30 jumper...I don’t get why a pole that he had seen about 100 times being put up would scare him. But he will spook at nothing as well, the dirt could scare him.... Please help, he’s become a very unenjoyable, unexpected and hard ride.
For medical/Physical reasons we have ruled most of them out. He’s 100% sound, Chiropractor comes every 4-6 weeks, No ulcers (He’s as fat as can be, lol) And overral in very good shape. he’s not going blind or blind either.
I cant tell if he’s doing it because he never got in trouble for spooking, leaping bucking before or if he’s just doing it for the fun of it, or maybe something else going on

Please help!! Any advice or similar stories/success stories would be very helpful. Thanks so much

 

[LiquidMetal]

He is in pain. Everything you have described is a pain response.

I would start with ulcers. Being fat does not mean a horse doesn’t have ulcers. Pretty much everything you’ve described can be attributed to ulcers. I’ve had great success treating horses with the human drug Nexium as a more cost efficient option. If you don’t see an improvement within a couple weeks, you need to contact a vet about a lameness exam. Your horse is doing all he can to tell you something is wrong. Please give him the benefit of the doubt and listen.

 

[arizonalover1]

He is in pain. Everything you have described is a pain response.

I would start with ulcers. Being fat does not mean a horse doesn’t have ulcers. Pretty much everything you’ve described can be attributed to ulcers. I’ve had great success treating horses with the human drug Nexium as a more cost efficient option. If you don’t see an improvement within a couple weeks, you need to contact a vet about a lameness exam. Your horse is doing all he can to tell you something is wrong. Please give him the benefit of the doubt and listen.

thank you so much for ur reply, but trust me we have ruled out ulcers. He’s been scoped.

 

[ycbm]

I'd bet my bottom dollar your horse is in pain.

Apart from scoping, what other diagnostics have been done already?

What were the injuries you were told about?

What explanation did the seller give you for the fact that he had been laid off?

Did you ride him when you bought him and how did he behave then?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions but it's difficult to help without the answers.

.

 

[AmyMay]

What were his career ending injuries?

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Head injuries which ended horse s career...then turned away...I would suspect the reasons for stopping his work are still there. What did your vet say upon purchase?

 

[meleeka]

“I cant tell if he’s doing it because he never got in trouble for spooking, leaping bucking before or if he’s just doing it for the fun of it, or maybe something else going on”

it doesn’t sound like this horse is having any fun at all, sorry.

Have you had a different rider on him? Did he react the same way?

it’s either pain related or the way he’s being asked to work, which he’s finding difficult (probably due to it being uncomfortable). Either way, he’s telling you he’s not happy.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I agree with the others, it sounds like a pain response.
The other thing to look at is his feed, what is he being fed?

 

[arizonalover1]

I'd bet my bottom dollar your horse is in pain.

Apart from scoping, what other diagnostics have been done already?

What were the injuries you were told about?

What explanation did the seller give you for the fact that he had been laid off?

Did you ride him when you bought him and how did he behave then?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions but it's difficult to help without the answers.

.

Vet came out and Xrayed his legs and back. I forgot which parts but everything looked good. There have been multiple people on him who have had the same reaction. Saddle has been fitted, fits nicely
He had two old suspensory injuries.
To be quite fair, the lady i got him off has a reputation of not facing problems. what i’m thinking is he had some problems and they stopped working him (he sat for a while before i got him), now he’s back in shape and he’s just having the same issues as before
that’s what me and other people close to me assumed
I did ride him before i bought him, he was great, however really looky and just angry to go forward.

 

[arizonalover1]

He’s being fed 2 flakes of bermuda in the morning, 2 flakes of alfalfa in the afternoon, 1 flake of bermuda and 1 flake of alfalfa at night. also gets hygain true care and true gain.

 

[arizonalover1]

“I cant tell if he’s doing it because he never got in trouble for spooking, leaping bucking before or if he’s just doing it for the fun of it, or maybe something else going on”

it doesn’t sound like this horse is having any fun at all, sorry.

Have you had a different rider on him? Did he react the same way?

it’s either pain related or the way he’s being asked to work, which he’s finding difficult (probably due to it being uncomfortable). Either way, he’s telling you he’s not happy.

He’s quite a goofy character and will do this on the lunge as well, even in his stall or turnout he likes to leap around. Hence why i thought he might be doing it for fun, sorry.

He’s done it with basically everyone who has ridden it. He’s had a few less experienced riders on him and he’s very very good for them.

He’s working on long and lows right now and going forward + stretching out.

 

[arizonalover1]

I agree with the others, it sounds like a pain response.
The other thing to look at is his feed, what is he being fed?

oops i posted ur reply without tagging u on accident it posted up above what he’s fed

 

[arizonalover1]

Head injuries which ended horse s career...then turned away...I would suspect the reasons for stopping his work are still there. What did your vet say upon purchase?

Not head injuries! had injuries. oops, did i put head instead of had??? He had two suspensory injuries. We did a full exam and said he was perfectly sound.

 

[Dyllymoo]

This is pain. And if suspensory injuries previously, its probably them again. I had very similar however my ex showjumper would bronc around the arena and would refuse to go into schools/ riding arenas.

You need to get a full lameness work up I am afraid. Horses very rarely play up for no reason and I genuinely think he is telling you he is sore.

 

[arizonalover1]

This is pain. And if suspensory injuries previously, its probably them again. I had very similar however my ex showjumper would bronc around the arena and would refuse to go into schools/ riding arenas.

You need to get a full lameness work up I am afraid. Horses very rarely play up for no reason and I genuinely think he is telling you he is sore.

So that’s what i suspected at first too, hence why we called the vet out to do the lameness exam. XRays included. He seemed to be fine

his spookiness came along with the habits.
Basically since we got him he’s been this way, just now he is more lazy. It’s not like he goes crazy, he will just randomly leap in the air if you tap him with the crop in response to him sucking back to go forward.
That and spookiness

 

[arizonalover1]

This is pain. And if suspensory injuries previously, its probably them again. I had very similar however my ex showjumper would bronc around the arena and would refuse to go into schools/ riding arenas.

You need to get a full lameness work up I am afraid. Horses very rarely play up for no reason and I genuinely think he is telling you he is sore.

Thank u for ur response also!

 

[Dyllymoo]

So that’s what i suspected at first too, hence why we called the vet out to do the lameness exam. XRays included. He seemed to be fine

his spookiness came along with the habits.
Basically since we got him he’s been this way, just now he is more lazy. It’s not like he goes crazy, he will just randomly leap in the air if you tap him with the crop in response to him sucking back to go forward.
That and spookiness

The problem is each horse is different in their pain reactions. My mare just started to refuse to go forward, was incredibly spooky out on hacks (to the point it was awful for both of us) and she went to the vets 4 times for lameness work ups and they found nothing. I pushed for a referral to a vets in Newmarket and they found a few things wrong including suspensory damage, sacroiliac and negative rotation of her pedal bones in both front feet. She would have been in immense pain when ridden but she covered it up well.

If your vet cant find anything ask for a referral to somewhere. I'm unsure if your insurance will cover it if his previous injuries are known as it could be that but honestly you need to find out what is wrong with the horse.

 

[Bellaboo18]

He's in pain. Sometimes it's hard to get to the bottom of where the pain is but you need to work with your vet and try.
If he's been scoped clear he may have hind gut ulcers.

 

[ycbm]

Vet came out and Xrayed his legs and back. I forgot which parts but everything looked good. There have been multiple people on him who have had the same reaction. Saddle has been fitted, fits nicely
He had two old suspensory injuries.
To be quite fair, the lady i got him off has a reputation of not facing problems. what i’m thinking is he had some problems and they stopped working him (he sat for a while before i got him), now he’s back in shape and he’s just having the same issues as before
that’s what me and other people close to me assumed
I did ride him before i bought him, he was great, however really looky and just angry to go forward.

So he was sold because he gives a pain reaction when ridden. He gave a pain reaction when you rode him to try him but you bought him anyway. And unless I'm a donkey (could be argued ) he is still in pain now, but you don't know where.

I would send him for a full body scintigraph, possibly after scanning all four legs for suspensories, x raying his neck and testing with sucralfate for hind gut ulcers.

Please try to stop thinking of him and describing him as lazy. He isn't lazy, he's hurting.

.

 

[D66]

You could try cutting out the alfalfa, that can make horses spooky as can a lot of other things - anything actually.
The way to identify a food sensitivity is to reduce all food down to very basic grass or grass nuts for a while and then add in other feed stuffs one at a time. Keep notes of when and what feedstuffs are fed and the horses temperament.
It could also be that the horse has been soured by over schooling/jumping.
Mostly though it looks like pain.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Ah just read your previous post. So he did have ulcers and you treated them? They're probably back again because the source of the pain wasn't found. Also if you treated with Omeprazole, he might now have hind gut ulcers.

 

[J&S]

Some times it isn't just the pain but also the memory of the pain. Then they may start to compensate and become properly uncomfortable, the spookiness will be because he has actually become nervous about being able to look after himself and is in a "can't cope" head space. I went though all the above with my mare after an injury. The vets words when she was signed off: "go away and forget this ever happened"....... well I might have been able to but she couldn't. Any way, just my take on what you have described.

 

[misst]

This is exactly how our old boy was when he damaged his suspenories aged 5. He came back into light work for a few years before the problems arose again. This time it was hind suspensories (both) and SI joint pain. Nerve blocks can be helpful as our lad both times did not look lame at all but when blocked went forward into his beautiful loose elevated stride with no complaint. When they wore off he was back to short choppy strides and behavour problems.
Please get another vet out this horse is trying to tell you something.

 

[scats]

I’d put my money on the suspensories again.
You are describing classic suspensory symptoms.

 

[Starzaan]

He’s in pain.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

oops i posted ur reply without tagging u on accident it posted up above what he’s fed

No problem. I don't know what bermuda is (I guess you are not in the UK) but lots of horses react very badly to alfalfa, so I would remove that from his diet and see if there is any improvement over at least one week.

But I would have his supensories investigated thoroughly, as above.

 

[Dusty 123]

X-ray don’t show much it sounds to me like ligament or supensories issues . he could have had a career ending injury that old owners hide so they could get him sold . To me it sounds that there is a physical problem not a behavior problem. It definitely a pain response and a lot of horses that are lazy are because physical problems.

 

[AmyMay]

I’d put my money on the suspensories again.
You are describing classic suspensory symptoms.

Yep, me too. You were sold a crock horse, well because it was crock. So now it’s crunch time - stop working him, throw some money at a proper diagnosis and go from there. But I suspect the reality is you quite possibly have a horse who’s ridden days are over.

 

[HeyMich]

Yes, most definitely in pain and not 'lazy'. The poor horse is shouting very loud!

Please, stop riding, and get a thorough vet assessment. I know you say it's not ulcers, but have you scoped? You really can't say anything conclusively without scoping.

I really feel for the poor horse, and hope you do the right thing.

.

 

[arizonalover1]

Ah just read your previous post. So he did have ulcers and you treated them? They're probably back again because the source of the pain wasn't found. Also if you treated with Omeprazole, he might now have hind gut ulcers.

Different horse! That horse is all clear now and out doing rodeos He had some hind gut ulcers