Please Help - Very Dominant Horse

[SKM90]

Good evening all,

As a long-time follower of the forum, first time poster, I am hoping you guys can help me out with some thoughts and wisdom.

I will try to keep this as short as possible…. But feel it may turn into a novel…

After a 15yr break from owning horses, I bought a 16.2hh ID gelding in April last year. I kept him on a friend’s yard between April & Dec while I got to know him and found my feet again in the world of horse ownership.

He’s naturally a very dominant horse, who I suspect was let away with murder in his last home as it was a teenager who was out horsed and lost confidence in riding that had him.

When I first got him, we quickly discovered he had an ill fitting saddle and a sore back as a result, we did a full MOT: New saddle, professionally fitted, dentist, Physio etc, clean bill of health and a much happier horse, however his dominant behaviour meant that he pushed every boundary: pushy on the ground, didn’t respect personal space, wouldn’t stand for grooming/tacking, doesn’t like or want to do something he bucks.

We spend a lot of time putting boundaries back in place and most of the issues resolved themselves, we still get bucks when he’s fresh, grumpy or if we canter when out hacking, it’s a quirk I generally ignore and ride through… if anyone has a magic fix for this let me know!! Its annoying as they are significant bucks but my seat is definitely improving!

In Dec I moved him home to our farm, I got a companion pony so he wasn’t alone (a 2yr rescue min cob who is an absolute sweetheart!) After a couple of weeks getting used to each other in side-by-side fields I put them in together, no issues, my lad is definitely top dog i.e. when I put hay in the field , fed from ground, ID will chase Mini off the piles until he has chosen his favourite. Etc but nothing out of the normal. Otherwise, they generally keep themselves to themselves, definitely not besties, which is fine as it means mini isn’t bothered when I hack the ID.

However over they last few weeks some of IDs behaviour has started to deteriorate, mainly in the field:

• Pushy/Rude in the field, if you go to check a rug or give him a pat, he will barge past or swing his bum and walk off.
• Running off when trying to catch, this can be accompanied by little rears and bucks in my direction which is not acceptable. He has done this twice in the last couple of weeks, each time I have kept him moving with the aid of a lead rope around the paddock until he has got his silliness out of his system, then he can be caught no bother and tacked up like a lamb. But its super annoying, as our paddock is pretty large, and this is a new issue.
• Has reared in my face while I was out poo picking and merely shooed him out of the way, got a big fright but thankfully held my ground and managed to used my voice and wild gesticulation to get him to back off.
• Today, my other half kindly went to put hay out to them this afternoon as I was working, we do this twice a day and always take the hay down in the same big bag. Today ID spun his hind quarters at OH and kicked out. Thankfully missed and when OH shook the bag to shoo him away he did it again.

To get to the point, I really don’t want to tolerate this behaviour as its blooming dangerous and I don’t want to have a horse that people are afraid to get in the field with. It just feels like he is throwing his weight about and he clearly thinks of himself as alpha even over humans.

I do wonder if the living with the mini has made him worse as he now has something to be dominant over 24/7, at my friends yard and pervious home he was on his own but over the fence from others – although in prior pony club homes pretty sure he lived with others with no problem so it doesn’t make it excusable.
Or maybe its a delayed reaction to the new environment, or possibly too much food and not enough work....

Other factors: lives out 24/7 although we have stables if required, only in very light work currently due to a run of terrible weather, good doer and a little chunky as I’m still figuring out the grazing, hay ratios on the new land. Gets a tiny dinner of chopped oat straw, and fast fibre to carry his vits/mins but may cut this out given recent hot/fresh behaviour.

I guess I am asking if I am reacting in the right way in the above scenarios and looking for advice on how to get my ID to respect me and my OH in and out of the field, so he no longer things of himself as top dog cause its now getting out of hand and dangerous.

I think groundwork may help, but it is not something I have done much of so any hints, tips or recommended reading/watching would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, any help gratefully received.

 

[TPO]

I'd suggest having a search on YouTube for Warwick Schiller videos. I'm fairly sure that there is a series where he works with a very bargy horse.

If he floats your boat he has a website and a membership scheme for access to more videos. There are however plenty available free on YouTube.

I really like Joe Midgley and Richard Maxwell for horse training. They both have subscription videos and the latter has three good books.

Personally I think you need to do some groundwork with the horse in a halter where he learns to move out of, and respect, your space. It sounds like you are trying to do this but that the horse is loose and therefore able to do as he pleases.

I'd also halter him everything you go in the field until this is resolved. Your OH, and you, could have been seriously injured or killed by his antics in the field. You must keep yourselves safe at all times.

From my experience with a very hard horse to catch it improved massively by doing the Richard Maxwell "circle work".

He might have free videos out there so worth a Google. He has an active fb page and is about to start a tour of clinics/demos so if he's close to you I'd highly recommend going.

Joe midgley has the good horsemanship channel and website so a fair bit of info there.

Good luck, wear a hat and gloves and stay safe

 

[stangs]

To me, he doesn’t sound ‘dominant’ (granted, I don’t generally believe in the idea of dominance in horses); he sounds very unhappy.

Have you had him scoped? Bucking and refusing to be caught could indicate discomfort when ridden. What’s he like when you give him his feed? The behaviour you describe around hay almost sounds like resourcing guarding / food anxiety, which I know can be another symptom of ulcers.

ETA: if you’re worried about your safety when with him in the paddock, use protected contact where possible - i.e. keeping a fence between the two of you when spreading hay.

 

[TPO]

To me, he doesn’t sound ‘dominant’ (granted, I don’t generally believe in the idea of dominance in horses); he sounds very unhappy.

Have you had him scoped? Bucking and refusing to be caught could indicate discomfort when ridden. What’s he like when you give him his feed? The behaviour you describe around hay almost sounds like resourcing guarding / food anxiety, which I know can be another symptom of ulcers.

Good points, I assumed all that had been done with previous vet/physio/dentist/saddle fitter visits.

So yeah if you think k there might be something missed OP worth a chat to your vet so that you can get the all clear to press on

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would catch him up and put him in the stable while you are working in the field for your own safety and to establish that you are in charge BUT I would also talk to the vet about the possibility of ulcers, as above.

 

[Melody Grey]

All of mine lose their manners a little at this time of year and try to revert to being a bit feral- it’s the spring grass coming through. Head of herd becomes more territorial and can be trickier to catch (was cut late) and other geldings nip and pull faces at each other more. Might be worth trying a tummy supplement if you think it might be grass?
....obviously could also be a multitude of other things!

 

[Melody Grey]

I would catch him up and put him in the stable while you are working in the field for your own safety and to establish that you are in charge BUT I would also talk to the vet about the possibility of ulcers, as above.

Second this- grass sugars irritate ulcers

 

[Orangehorse]

I wonder if he is being protective of his little friend? Even though they don't seem to be best friends, he is still in the field with him.

IDs are big strong horses and will literally through their weight around.

I had a TBx grumpy mare that would turn her quarters to people in the field and threaten to kick, I had to stop my children going into the field to stroke their pony. I tried telling her off, clapping my hands, yelling at her, jumping up and down, but I cured it by throwing a rubber feed bowl at her quarters - it took 3 goes - but honestly that was desperation on my part. It did cure her though she never did it again.

However, I think that with this big boy the ideas above are all valid. As always rule out physical problems and then professional help, it will be worth it.

 

[TheLoneWanderer]

Sorry this won't be popular, cut his turnout in half so out at night on during the day or vice versa and handle more to re establish manners. No horse should be bad mannered wether they have health issues or not. I don't mean natural horsemanship nonsense. I mean stand when told to stand etc.

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

I know it’s not best for the horse but sometimes there better behaved when they are in for some of the time as they see you differently whe your providing there hay/feed that might just be my experience of it though I would definitely think it’s pain related like back off I’m trying to communicate with you as my mate came across like this she had so many tests professionals out and a X-ray found what was wrong

 

[SEL]

My Appy mare came to me incredibly aggressive around food - she'd been hand reared so massive anxiety issues. Your horse sounds very similar in terms of the behaviour she used to show and still can on a bad day. Bad days are when she is hungry, weather is bad or her tummy is playing up - she has a history of ulcers.

She is top dog in the paddock and the other two give her space but at this time of year (no grass) I tend to stable her for breakfast and tea while I put hay out and poo pick. She gets very resource focused and I am the provider of said resources - hay - so want to avoid the scraps when she chases the others away from me.

She is light years away from what she was as a baby now she knows food will always be there and understands a routine but new horses set her off so it may well be the companion has set off something with yours. When mine was bad I kept the barrow between human and horse at all times, she had a field safe headcollar on and I was the only one allowed in the field.

But - tummy problems about now are an annual occurrence no matter how much hay is out. Maybe coat change triggering something but don't discount ulcers because it can make them very unpredictable

 

[southerncomfort]

One of mine is going through a bargy/feral stage (though he isn't dangerous and wouldn't dream of kicking out or rearing up at me). I lead him in a rope halter at all times because he is much better behaved than when wearing a normal headcollar.

If I need to do anything in the field I put him in his stable so that I can get on with my jobs unhindered!

I've put him on Protexin just in case the grass is making him uncomfortable. I've also put him on RigCalm. He isn't a rig but he was late cut and his behaviour can be a bit coltish.

I also think my lad is bored. We live in an area where winter weather means exercise is quite sporadic. His behaviour is so much better when he's getting as much exercise as I can give him. Not just physical exercise, he is very clever and has a very busy brain which needs occupying or he becomes a bit of a twit!

If you're sure he isn't sore anywhere could you try upping his workload? Also, lots of good quality groundwork, as suggested above, to reinforce ideas around boundaries and personal space. If you're not confident with this could you get a trainer/behaviourist out to help?

I would also always where a hat when doing anything with him.

 

[eahotson]

To me, he doesn’t sound ‘dominant’ (granted, I don’t generally believe in the idea of dominance in horses); he sounds very unhappy.

Have you had him scoped? Bucking and refusing to be caught could indicate discomfort when ridden. What’s he like when you give him his feed? The behaviour you describe around hay almost sounds like resourcing guarding / food anxiety, which I know can be another symptom of ulcers.

ETA: if you’re worried about your safety when with him in the paddock, use protected contact where possible - i.e. keeping a fence between the two of you when spreading hay.

My old horse was 99% of the time an absolute saint on the ground.The only times he got a bit bargy was when he was, for whatever reason,feeling a bit insecure. He has had changes in his life.Not withstanding the OP and her partner must make sure that they are safe when handling him or are in the field with him.

 

[tristar]

i would never tolerate kicking out towards people

mine are pretty hot lunging, in the field etc, vocal cussing works for me, and i notice next time they jump around they keep their arxe end end under control so get vocal praise

they have never kicked anyone but the slightest threat is cut short, zero tolerance is the best path

i think of myself as their leader, which means i don`t let them dominate, i make the decisions, its needed as they are bold by nature, sometimes you have to work with the nature of individual

or you could get another lovely bigger cob and rehome the other one

 

[Tarragon]

I also wonder if making the grazing smaller and start stabling, even if it is just bringing them in for a feed and then turning back out. The routine of just a little more handling will be useful, and it gives you the daily opportunity to start the process of improving his manners.

 

[Birker2020]

To me, he doesn’t sound ‘dominant’ (granted, I don’t generally believe in the idea of dominance in horses); he sounds very unhappy.

y.

This was exactly what I was going to say.

 

[irishdraft]

I would wonder if it is change of yard/routine & the new companion has put his behaviour back to a point of when the previous owner had him . Sometimes I think when the pressure/stress is on a horse can revert to deeply ingrained behaviours . You could try removing the mini to another field but still within seeing distance & see if he improves. Plus try and get some more work into him if possible. I tend to try to ignore or avoid confrontation with horses without letting them get away with things . It's a question if trying to work out reasons and put strategy into place if all physical reasons have been ruled out .I have big IDs and no way would I want this type of behaviour going on so I appreciate it's a difficult one x

 

[paddy555]

Sorry this won't be popular, cut his turnout in half so out at night on during the day or vice versa and handle more to re establish manners. No horse should be bad mannered wether they have health issues or not. I don't mean natural horsemanship nonsense. I mean stand when told to stand etc.

this won't be popular either. There is a leader and a follower and he is the leader, call it dominance or what you like. Someone has to be in charge and ATM it is very happily him with his new object to dominate as well ie the pony.
I'm afraid that if he put me or OH in hospital I would not be too concerned about his unhappiness.

I would suggest you take back control very firmly. He will in fact be a lot happier if he understands the boundaries and his position.
Sort out strategies for feeding, catching etc to keep yourselves safe. Feed over the fence to get a headcollar on, bring him in and put hay out whilst he is out of the paddock. Whatever keeps you safe.
Stable him a bit more. Get him into an environment where he is not free with the pony to mess around with. He is in a stable and you are making the rules. You approach the door and the correct movement is back (that is for him not for you )

Then start the in hand work. It doesn't matter what you do but basically when you move towards him he moves backwards out of your space. Growl at him, swing the rope and if he really really will not get the message there is always blue alkathene pipe.
You can do anything in hand, just lead a few steps, stop, back, forward a few steps, turn on the forehand. Anything as long as he is listening to you and between instructions he is standing calmly. Make sure at all times your position is not in the way if he stands up.

Feed him in the stable, you walk in with the feed, he backs and stands whilst you put the bin down and then on command he goes to eat.

 

[mini_b]

If it’s not pain related crabby behaviour, I too would bring in for a bit. My IDx went a bit silly and fer

My old horse was 99% of the time an absolute saint on the ground.The only times he got a bit bargy was when he was, for whatever reason,feeling a bit insecure. He has had changes in his life.Not withstanding the OP and her partner must make sure that they are safe when handling him or are in the field with him.

100% this

 

[SKM90]

Guys - thanks so much for all the responses.
Has given me the reassurance that I'm not over reacting and that I need to get this sorted asap.
Have put a call into the vet, ordered some Richard Maxwell books, will get him in more and get cracking on groundwork & boundaries.
He is lovely in so many ways so I hope that with time and effort we can get back on track.

Really appreciate all the wisdom.

 

[mariew]

You are not on your own. When I bought my I'd x, a knowledgeable horse lady said you will have a lovely horse by the time they are 8 or 9. Lol! So true. We had some spectacular kevins. They are big, clever, strapping strong animals and sometimes they need a firm but fair hand. And often need a lot of exercise to keep them sane. I had to learn quickly too!