please watch these vids of my horse being lunged, I don't know what's wrong with him!

[sophiebailey]

Hi everyone, if anyone could offer me some advice I'd be very grateful!

A bit of back story before the videos -

Bailey, 20yo cobbie, my first horse.

Bailey had mild spasmodic colic 31st July/1st August. Had a few weeks off work as tummy was very delicate. Started walking him in hand mid august, started walking him under saddle end of August.

He was very very stiff during his hacks (more so in walk than trot) and at first I gave him a week to loosen off (he gets quite stiff if he's not in regular work) but the more I rode the worse the stiffness seemed to get to the point where I ended up getting off halfway round our route and walking him home.

Vet came 3rd September, did his teeth (no issues, barely had to rasp them) gave his vaccs, gave him a once over and said she couldn't see anything wrong. Asked about stiffness, she checked all his legs and watched him trot up etc, she said he's not lame just stiff, most likely creaky joints, will improve with more work. Asked about possibility of arthritis, she played with all of his joints and said there's no swelling/pain/lack of movement that would suggest to her he's arthritic. She suggested a visit from chiro to look at his pelvis as that's where she thought the stiffness was.

Chiro came this Tuesday (11th). Found that pelvis was twisted, popped it back and said no problems elsewhere and he's mega flexible for an oldie. Said give him till Thursday, ride on Thurs and keep him doing short regular exercise. So rode Thursday he was stiff but better. Ditto Saturday, stiff but better than before.

Then we get to today; Struggled to get the bridle on him (really unusual) lunged him and he just looked awful. Cant put my finger on what looks wrong! He kept tripping all the time (Ground is uneven but he never usually trips that badly) and twice he spooked/bolted off on the end of the lunge line which he never does. I couldn't see or hear anything that might have scared him so am confused about what that's about.

Sat in the field and cried - don't know what to do to help my boy. Went back up tonight to rug up and feed him, and he wouldn't let me near him. In the 18months I've had him I've never had a problem catching him but tonight he was careering round the field bucking and leaping and took me 20 mins and bucket of treats to get a head collar on him.

I really don't know what to do! Should I continue riding him and hope this will smooth out any stiffness he's got? Do I need to call someone to look at him, and if so who as vet and chiro both say on paper he's fine - don't know where to go next!

**farrier came 2 weeks ago so feet aren't something I'd consider a factor in him tripping**

here's the videos, please excuse me and my "lunge voice". You'll notice he's quite reluctant to go into trot/canter whereas usually I only have to ask him once the first walk is very very lazy, which I think is a combination of his stiffness, today's naughtiness and me not having the lunge whip in my hand! He's a lot more forward when he sees the lunge whip!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlRYrf4LK3Q&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3FCaOIz164

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpED7wKvY5w

anything anyone can spot in any of those?

Thank you very muchly xxXxxx hot chocolate with marshmallows for anyone that made it to the end of this thread! xx

 

[FfionWinnie]

I wonder if his eye sight is failing. Or a sudden pain. I'd get the vet back. He looks unhappy

 

[sophiebailey]

I wonder if his eye sight is failing. Or a sudden pain. I'd get the vet back. He looks unhappy

That's something I thought about but it's only been today that he's been that flighty! Could eyesight problems come on overnight?? He was fine yesterday!! x

 

[FfionWinnie]

Was he definitely stiff or coud he have been tentative? It sounds odd for his behaviour to change so suddenly. Let us know what the vet says.

 

[noodle_]

as above.... he just looks like "i cannot be bothered........"

 

[SpottedCat]

OP can you get a different vet, ad are you using an equine practice? He doesn't look right behind to me at all, I'd say it's bilateral (both hinds) but worse on the near hind. He's v short behind, which is not unexpected given the age/breed, but arthritis isn't only associated with swelling hence me wondering if you're using an equine practice.

 

[HBM1]

I am really pooped so off to bed, but he looks a lovely boy. My first though on viewing them (with very tired and inexperienced eyes), is that he doesn't seem to be running away to be naughty, almost as if he has heard a gun shot go off behind him - so I wonder if it is a pain response, or even an anticipation of a pain response.

I hope someone will be able to help though - I love the way you talk to him by the way - only thing I did wonder is it is so soothing and calming it may not be giving him the oomph you actually want him to have on the lunge. I'd use the same tone, but a bit more oomph yourself, if you see what I mean?

 

[madeleine1]

i might be totally rong so please still use ur own judgement but id say his reactions are down to pain

i would start by getting the chiro back out and finding out why his pelvis was twisted before as it seems strange that it would just happen and maybe theres a problem with the saddle or he just needs more then one re alining session.

 

[Twinkley Lights]

So sorry this is happening to you and your lad. Personally I would call the vet as he was not a happy chappy in vid 1 walking before any trot work and at 20 you have to let them tell you having had a cob it looked like discomfort. How long have you had him, as if this isnt typical then this backs up my first comment. Hope all goes well

 

[Tizzy]

He looks like he is just being lazy and not concentrating. Then when something catches his eye it's a terrifying 'I must spook and act like an idiot' type reaction. He may just be having an off day, if like you say, this is out of character.

 

[sophiebailey]

Ffionwinnie - He could well have been. His field mate had been off for a hack that morning and he's always a bit moody if he's been in the field on his own for a while!

Spottedcat - yes I use a dedicated equine practice up the road from me - I've never had any problems with their treatment before but could ask for a different vet to come and look at him?? If so, what am I asking her to look at? his rear end?

HMB1 - that's what I was worried of too there wasn't anything there/any sounds to spook him so it's unusual that he'd just take off, it's almost as if something twanged but I'm not sure if I'm just making it up because I'm so conscious of him having been poorly!

Madeleine- thank you i'll give her a call. She didn't say why she thought it was out, just that it was a common problem in most horses and can be done when having a hoon in the field, rolling etc etc. His saddle was last checked in April but this is happening without it on so I wouldn't think its a saddle problem ... he's got a made to measure and it still fits us both great

 

[Bedlam]

I just have issues with 'chiros' who can 'pop back' a twisted pelvis if I'm honest. It's just not physically possible.

My gut feeling would be to look at sacroiliac and hind suspensories from what you have said.

Your lovely chap doesn't track up much in walk or trot - is this new? I also think that he looks a bit uncomfortable behind, but again - not knowing him it's hard to tell whether this is just him or something wrong?

 

[sophiebailey]

So sorry this is happening to you and your lad. Personally I would call the vet as he was not a happy chappy in vid 1 walking before any trot work and at 20 you have to let them tell you having had a cob it looked like discomfort. How long have you had him, as if this isnt typical then this backs up my first comment. Hope all goes well

Around 18 months now. He looks very miserable indeed but sometimes it can take him a long time to warm up, this video was just as we started. This is where my confusion is, is he like this because he needs more work to stretch out and de-stiffen ... or do I need to stop working him and get the vet ... will him doing NO work make the problem worse ...... so stuck

 

[laura7981]

He doesn't look a happy hoss bless him. Maybe the colic really took it out of him and he needed more time to recover. Hope you find the answer hun.

 

[sophiebailey]

He looks like he is just being lazy and not concentrating. Then when something catches his eye it's a terrifying 'I must spook and act like an idiot' type reaction. He may just be having an off day, if like you say, this is out of character.

This is typical of him on a hack, but not usually on the lunge. xx

 

[SadKen]

Sometimes the autumn grass can make feet a bit tender (not as bad as spring/frozen grass but does have a higher sugar content), which might also mean that he's lacking a bit in magnesium that could poss account for the spooking. I'd check the digital pulse perhaps and maybe see if there is a natural hoofcare or equine podiatrist in your area that could take a look. He doesn't look too keen on moving freely to me. Tender feet could be translating to stiffness specially as he has shoes on, as that will affect the propriception. Not an expert or anything, just something extra to consider. Hope you sort it soon as he is very handsome but looks quite sad

 

[be positive]

Did the vet do flexion tests on him because to me he does not just look stiff but at times lame, he is not tracking up at all in trot, although he is not really going forward so it is hard to judge, the spook on the right rein looks more like a trip then he shoots off as if shocked.

I am very wary of any practitioner that states a horse has a twisted pelvis that they can pop back in, he looks tight through his back and that could be why he is not tracking up but there will be a reason, did the chiro give you exercises to do with him?
Can you get him to work long and low in order to lift his back and help him stretch, this would enable him to loosen up properly, lunging in a hollow frame will do no good as he will just hold himself stiffly because he finds it easier than working properly.

 

[sophiebailey]

I just have issues with 'chiros' who can 'pop back' a twisted pelvis if I'm honest. It's just not physically possible.

My gut feeling would be to look at sacroiliac and hind suspensories from what you have said.

Your lovely chap doesn't track up much in walk or trot - is this new? I also think that he looks a bit uncomfortable behind, but again - not knowing him it's hard to tell whether this is just him or something wrong?

If i'm being honest me too, but i'd had 4 friends rave about how this Chiro fixed their horses and they've never been working better so thought I'd give it a go. I usually go down the physio route!

At the start of a ride/schooling session he doesn't track up, as he warms up he usually overtracks but his movement is quite short which feels horrible when you're sat on him, and that's how he felt when I got off mid-hack as he should have warmed up and started overtracking like usual but he wasn't

 

[kildalton]

I just have issues with 'chiros' who can 'pop back' a twisted pelvis if I'm honest. It's just not physically possible.

My gut feeling would be to look at sacroiliac and hind suspensories from what you have said.

Your lovely chap doesn't track up much in walk or trot - is this new? I also think that he looks a bit uncomfortable behind, but again - not knowing him it's hard to tell whether this is just him or something wrong?

^^^^whatBedlam said.

 

[sophiebailey]

Did the vet do flexion tests on him because to me he does not just look stiff but at times lame, he is not tracking up at all in trot, although he is not really going forward so it is hard to judge, the spook on the right rein looks more like a trip then he shoots off as if shocked.

I am very wary of any practitioner that states a horse has a twisted pelvis that they can pop back in, he looks tight through his back and that could be why he is not tracking up but there will be a reason, did the chiro give you exercises to do with him?
Can you get him to work long and low in order to lift his back and help him stretch, this would enable him to loosen up properly, lunging in a hollow frame will do no good as he will just hold himself stiffly because he finds it easier than working properly.

She didn't do any flexion just watched him trot up. She did say that once the pelvis is re-aligned the back can be stiff as the muscles are "re-setting" themselves after compensating for having a twisted pelvis. I thought this might be the problem but she said any soreness should be gone by the weekend

I find it hard to get him to lengthen on the lunge, he does it great under saddle but I dont want to ride him if it's a problem I could aggravate through ridden work

 

[TrasaM]

Aw..poor chap. Definitely stiff and looks uncomfortable. Watched the videos a couple of times and my eye kept being drawn to his front end. Could the manipulation to his pelvis have affected him higher up his back, behind his whithers area. If he doesn't want you to catch him the I guess he's telling you he does not want to be messed with or ridden..you know him best but I'd get advice as he's not a happy chappy in those vids.

 

[sophiebailey]

Sometimes the autumn grass can make feet a bit tender (not as bad as spring/frozen grass but does have a higher sugar content), which might also mean that he's lacking a bit in magnesium that could poss account for the spooking. I'd check the digital pulse perhaps and maybe see if there is a natural hoofcare or equine podiatrist in your area that could take a look. He doesn't look too keen on moving freely to me. Tender feet could be translating to stiffness specially as he has shoes on, as that will affect the propriception. Not an expert or anything, just something extra to consider. Hope you sort it soon as he is very handsome but looks quite sad

Thank you, I have checked for digital pulses (very laminitis conscious!) and can never feel any. Nor warm hooves, farrier seemed ok with how his feet were and said they were looking better than they have previously which is one positive!! What is a podiatrist??

 

[sophiebailey]

Aw..poor chap. Definitely stiff and looks uncomfortable. Watched the videos a couple of times and my eye kept being drawn to his front end. Could the manipulation to his pelvis have affected him higher up his back, behind his whithers area. If he doesn't want you to catch him the I guess he's telling you he does not want to be messed with or ridden..you know him best but I'd get advice as he's not a happy chappy in those vids.

That kind of fits in with what the Chiro said about other muscles being sore after the pelvis goes back in as they all stretch/retract to their proper places. I thought that too, especially coupled with how awkward he was being when I was trying to put his bridle on

 

[paulineh]

You could try a course of Bute to see if that makes a difference,this would tell you if it was pain related.

 

[Bikerchickone]

I agree with the others who have said he doesn't look comfortable on the back end. As far as I'm aware it takes a lot more than just popping a pelvis back in for a horse to be fine too. I'd get a second opinion from another vet, preferably one who's seen him before and also then get their recommendation for an equine osteopath or other reputable back person.

If you can get someone else to trot him away from you you'll be able to see if he's level or not on the back. It's really difficult to tell in the videos as I couldn't decide without seeing both together if you see what I mean!

He looks like a lovely sort and I really hope you get him sorted out soon. x

 

[sophiebailey]

You could try a course of Bute to see if that makes a difference,this would tell you if it was pain related.

this also crossed my mind! Would the vet give me bute if I rang and asked for it? he's gone onto his butefree supplement tonight (Devils claw) so i'll see if there's any improvement with that. He hasn't had any glucosamine supplement since before he had colic, do you think he'd benefit from going back onto that?

 

[Jericho]

Agree with others that without seeing what he is like normally it's a bit difficult to tell. In the first two videos he seems uncomfortable and not really wanting to move forward - whether that is because he is just being lazy or not is difficult to tell. There does seem to be a bit of head shaking, tail swishing and general I'm not happy about this attitude.

However in the last video when he spooks in trot it definitely seems as though he gets a twinge of pain and that's why he shoots off. He doesn't look like he is being silly for the sake of it. IMO if they are just being twerps on the lunge they generally charge around a bit more but he quickly pulls up. It almost looks like his hind leg gives away a little.

I would perhaps try again tomorrow and see if there is any difference as he may have just been having one of those days and then decide whether to rest for a few days and retry or get vet out to check his hind legs / back again, where they see him on the lunge if there is no immediate reason.

At his age and being a cob he is going to stiffen up and not be as agile but I could not help think that he was not moving freely and that each leg seemed to be doing something a bit different.

 

[be positive]

I still dont think the pelvis can be "out", it is the muscles around the pelvis that are "out" so any work done on the area is to the muscles and ligaments, once they have had treatment they may take a few days to settle but you should find improvement immediately if the problem is fairly recent. Most back issues stem from something, they occasionally follow a field incident but most will come from a badly fitting saddle or problems further down the legs, they are holding themselves in order to compensate for discomfort elsewhere.

I would expect the vet to do flexions and or trot in circles on hard ground before ruling out arthritic changes, only by x-rays can any changes be ruled out or confirmed for definite, swelling is not always present.

 

[horsesatemymoney]

I'd prob hold off the glucosomine atm and save your money and get second opinion instead. He is lovely but looks in pain I disagree with the poster who said the spook was naughtiness he looks pain. It looks like it is both hinds , but he doesn't look happy through his back. I'd be wary about using bute to see if it is pain, better to get another vet opinion imo...hope he feels btr soon x

 

[Surreydeb]

Looks very uncomfortable to me behind and trying not to 'use' himself if you know what I mean. My old chap was a bit 'odd' behind and after nerve blocks turned out to be high up and diagnosis was arthritis in his hips. I would second a bute trial to see if he improves and if he does then you can investigate further. I agree with others the shooting off looks like a pain response doesn't look like a 'hooley