Point to ponder - rein back

[puddicat]

Horses use different gaits depending on the speed they're travelling so for 0 - 4.5 mph (for something horse sized) it's walk , for 4mph - 13 mph it's trot and for 11 mph upwards it's canter/gallop. Each gait is defined by the pattern of footfalls so if L=left, R=right, H=hind, F=fore, the feet come to the ground in the order:

walk: LH LF RH RF
trot: LH+RF RH+LF
canter: (left) RH LH+RF LF
etc.

SO

when horse does rein back, why does it use diagonal pairs of legs as for trot rather than using the walk sequence which would be used to travel forwards at the same speed ?

 

[PapaFrita]

I hadn't noticed. BUT, I was hoping you or someone else could explain to me how they get stripes all the way into the middle of the toothpaste as it comes out of the nozzle?
Like this:

Why doesn't it all get squished up in the tube?

(not like signal which just has the stripes on the surface)

 

[ann-jen]

PF I have often wondered that about the toothpaste too - I wonder if we have too much time on our hands!

 

[dieseldog]

As my horse apparently can't walk does this mean she would do rein back in canter footfalls?

 

[Jellicle]

I think that the tube is actually divided into sections, but I may have made that up.

Rein back - it's just how it is. it's like asking why canter is a three beat pace.

 

[ciderminx]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1047836

 

[*hic*]

Apparently if you hit the tube with a hammer hard enough the stripes should all come out mixed up! Trouble is being able to generate the force needed.

This is according to Adam Hart-Davis in Saturday's Telegraph.

 

[*hic*]

I think you need to get down on your hands and knees to sort this one out! I find it easy to "walk" and "trot" forwards on all fours but "walking" backwards means that my spine is stretched and uncomfortable and I'm off balance. Going backwards in paired diagonals like a trot is much easier - and I guess it is also for the horse!

 

[puddicat]

Ha ha well I'm afraid I have no idea how the toothpaste tube works. The general idea will be you have 3 compartments and mix them ont he way out but it has to be cleverer than that to make sure you get roughly the same amount of each colour independent of squeeze. I tried to find out how the signal toothpaste tube worked when I was small by pulling the tube to bits but unfortunately they used to made of metal and I never managed to get into one without demolishing the bit I was trying to look at.

 

[puddicat]

"As my horse apparently can't walk does this mean she would do rein back in canter footfalls? "

Try it, you never know....

 

[puddicat]

"Rein back - it's just how it is. it's like asking why canter is a three beat pace."

Errrrrrr well yes but there are several good reasons why canter is a 3 beat gait!

The snag is you could say that about anything and then we'd know nothing - "why does the sun rise in the morning" well it just does doesn't it! There is a divide between things in the natural world that happen for a reason and things that happen randomly and it's sometimes difficult to know which category to put something in. That's why statistics is so useful - you can show that something can't be accounted for just by randomness.

When you're dealing with a biological 'system' however there is almost always a reason for something, it's just whether you can work out what it is. So there are good reasons for every aspect of the way your horse moves, there are good reasons why trot is a 2 beat gait, and why the horse doesn't nod its head in trot but does in walk etc etc.....

I don't know the answer for rein-back, I don't even know an answer but I know what it could be and what it probably isn't. There *is* an answer however, it's just I don't know what it is.

 

[puddicat]

Have you got a pussycat? OK anyone with a pussycat please could you try getting it to go backwards and notice what sequence its legs come to the ground. I'm not taking responsibility if you get scratched by the way

 

[ihatework]

Okay, bit of a boring day at work so decided to give a few minutes to think about one of your random questions.

I’m by no means an expert in animal locomotion but have written down my random thought processes, I’m sure you will correct my thinking when I get it wrong!

Firstly a horse moves the way it does in the different gaits for a reason, I assume it boils down to what is the most energy efficient way for the speed it is required to do, combined possibly with anatomical constraints?

I then started to think about horses going backwards, now I can’t really think of any instances when a horse is wild or even domesticated and loose in the paddock that they choose to go backwards of their own free will … the odd step here or there, but if they need to change direction they would normally choose to pivot round and then go forwards.

I therefore am working along the lines that ‘rein-back’ is actually a fairly unnatural gait for a horse. This led me first of all to think that perhaps a 2 time gait was the easiest for the horse in terms of staying balanced, possibly so but it didn’t really answer the question and I am sure there is more to it than just that (combined with the fact that a poorly performed rein back tends to be more of a shuffle than true steps!)

So then started to think about the footfalls in walk and how these would translate to rein-back.

Well for a start it would be pretty difficult for a horse to do LH, LF, RH, RF I would imagine and if it were to be a 4 time movement then you would be looking at LF, LH, RF, RH

And that’s about as far as I got! But I imagine there is an anatomical reason behind it.

 

[puddicat]

well I don't know either but I agree with your line of thought!

Firstly a horse moves the way it does in the different gaits for a reason, I assume it boils down to what is the most energy efficient way for the speed it is required to do, combined possibly with anatomical constraints?

yes, that's exactly how it seems to work in a nutshell


then started to think about horses going backwards, now I can’t really think of any instances when a horse is wild or even domesticated.......

yes, some people dispute this but I think horses travel forwards enough of time to take it that they don't go backwards. The fact that they might do very occasionally is a technicality I think.


I therefore am working along the lines that ‘rein-back’ is actually a fairly unnatural gait for a horse. This led me first of all to think that perhaps a 2 time gait was the easiest for the horse in terms of staying balanced, possibly so but it didn’t really answer the question and I am sure there is more to it than just that (combined with the fact that a poorly performed rein back tends to be more of a shuffle than true steps!)

Ahhhhhh yes well, the reason I first got into this question was to do with the implications for dressage judging. Without getting really boring, there's a possibility that rein back isn't really a gait at all for all the reasons you've mentioned. That would fit with a lot of the observations but would be pretty difficult to show experimentally.


So then started to think about the footfalls in walk and how these would translate to rein-back. Well for a start it would be pretty difficult for a horse to do LH, LF, RH, RF I would imagine and if it were to be a 4 time movement then you would be looking at LF, LH, RF, RH

Yes absolutely, you'd have to reverse the order of footfalls for it to be like forward walk otherwise it would feel odd and you would lose balance. It could have something to do with balance but I'm not convinced. Walk is much more stable than trot because there are more feet on the ground.

 

[druid]

Ok, have been getting dogs to do "rein-back" all do the same diagonal pair movements a horse would...the cat bit me and is now hiding behind the sofa, I don't think he wants to participate.

 

[puddicat]

yes all dogs I've ever pushed backwards have done that too, unfortunately the cat is definitely the species of interest here. Can you coax it out with a ball of wool or something?

Whilst wearing thick gloves

 

[*hic*]

I'm going off to try to persuade one of my eight cats to rein back for me (may well cut claws first).

But have you experimented by reining back on your hands and knees?

 

[ihatework]

[ QUOTE ]


But have you experimented by reining back on your hands and knees?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's one to do in the pub after a couple of beers

 

[*hic*]

OK - sample of three (so far). All subjects tempted / rewarded with prawns, this was not very successful as all subjects were then motivated to demonstrate pirouettes. No attempt to modify way of going was made - this was just a case of pushing back to see what happened.

9yo black male DSH with amputated tail and bladder trouble. Walks one foot at a time backwards but sits down very quickly (around three steps). Suspect this is due to tail not being present as spatial warning device.

2yo ginger tabby striped male DSH, fit and well. Walks back in two time but moving pairs of legs on same side. Quite happy to comply.

2yo grey tabby striped female DSH (sister of above), fit and well. Initially walked back one foot at a time but, being relatively more intelligent (female), after the first time started to experiment with using different footfalls in two time and by her fourth go was firmly established in trot footfall sequence. Her decision, not mine as she has the dodgiest temperament.

Other five potential subjects are no doubt sunning themselves somewhere.

This is one of those times when I really miss working as I'd have had the MD, CEO and other directors in the board room experimenting. Especially if it had been Friday after the pub!

 

[ihatework]

Love it, what a clever female kitty

 

[*hic*]

The really interesting one would be my 3yo ginger tabby male DSH. He's ex-feral, can be very wild and only has three legs!

 

[puddicat]

I love the idea of rewarding with prawns, that would work for me too.

So this is where is gets confusing, cats generally walk backwards one foot at a time (believe it or not people have studied this), when they move a pair of legs on the same side, that's closer to a walk than a trot, and some dogs and cats move pairs of legs on the same side almost simultaneously when they're walking forwards. It would be interesting to know if big cats walk backwards if you push them but I've never found anyone willing to do the experiment.

 

[puddicat]

"and only has three legs"

yes that sort of limits his options somewhat

 

[puddicat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


But have you experimented by reining back on your hands and knees?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's one to do in the pub after a couple of beers

[/ QUOTE ]

I will if you will !!!

Yes I've tried (not in the pub) it but the problem is the differences between our anatomy and a horses are so great that I don't think you could safely assume that what was easy or hard for us would be easy or hard for the horse. Perhaps in very general terms.

 

[emma69]

I was led to believe it was a balance thing as the muscles moving the opposite way to how they normally would (backwards extension, pushing off from the back of the foot as opposed to the front) would be less stable.

 

[puddicat]

Yes, It could very easily be something to do with balance. The problem with the 'musclulature' argument is that in practice whether you use a walk sequence or a trot sequence, the legs are used in the same way. so if it can do one, it should be able to do the other. The foot size argument is, again, possible except that it would have the same effect in walk sequence and trot sequence, so it still doesn't really account for why the trot sequence is preferred. Also hooves are the smallest feet you can get, it's us humans have seriously long feet.

If it's a balance thing it could be to do with the head being on the wrong end for balancing whilst going backwards but I'm not convinced because walk sequence is certainly more stable than trot. My two main guesses at the moment would be (1) its because walking backwards isn't really a gait (that's to do with how the movement is generated neuronally) and (2) it's to do with spinal flexion, anything with an inflexible spine can't walk backwards. The problem with that is that dogs have a flexible spine (not as flexible as cats though) and dogs seem to prefer to walk backwards in diagonal pairs.

For me the lovely thing about the question is that I think we probably know all the relevant information it's just that I can't see how it fits together. That's much more annoying than thinking there is a key bit of information missing and there's no chance of answering the question until you find it! In other words it's much more annoying thinking I'm stupid rather than ignorant