Poll issues

[Annagain]

Charlie has a bit of an issue with intermittent head tossing. It seems to be an anxiety / impatience / adrenalin thing more than anything (nose net /seasons made no difference). He'll do it for the last 5 minutes heading home on a hack. This is much improved from as soon as we turn for home / hit half way on a circular route as it used to be. If we box up somewhere new and he doesn't realise he's heading back to the trailer, he doesn't do it. In the school, he was doing well with getting out of the habit but it's started creeping back in recently - although we are asking him to do a bit more now, nothing very advanced, just a bit of lateral work and a bit more collection. Everything else is coming on in leaps and bounds but we just can't crack this issue.

He can go for whole session without doing it, do nothing for ages then start, do it for a few minutes here and there for the whole session or do it fairly persistently and then suddenly stop as if a switch has been flicked. If he's doing poles or jumping and has something to focus on, he doesn't do it. He doesn't do it on the lunge - neither in a cavesson nor his bridle,with or without side reins. It makes no difference whether you have contact or not and he'll do it mostly in walk or trot, but very occasionally in canter. We've tried telling him off and ignoring it and neither makes much difference. He'll just stop when he's ready, sometimes this is after 20 seconds, sometimes 10 minutes.

When he had his saddle issue, we had the the physio out to give him a check over. Everything was fine, back wise but she found his poll was really tight so she worked on it. She gave us carrot stretches to do and and she came back today to do some follow up. This time she did a bit more focused work on his poll and his neck and we found that when she upped the pressure on him in terms of what she was doing he started the head tossing and when he was doing the head tossing, she could feel his nuchal ligament 'twanging'. She thinks there's a bit of a chicken and egg situation going on where he does it as a stress / adrenalin release but that by doing it he causes tightness and pain which causes more stress and the circle continues. She's not sure whether the habit or the pain came first, just that each is now exacerbating the other.

She's coming back in 2 weeks and we have lots of exercises to do in the meantime. We switched him to a Micklem a while ago and it seemed to help but that positive effect seems to have worn off now. We're going to change back to his (normal but padded) bridle to see if just changing the pressure point helps in which case swapping bridles fairly regularly might help but I'm wondering if we might need a much more cut back head piece or a bigger brow band. It doesn't appear tight, but we're willing to try anything.

I'm not really sure what I'm asking but does anybody have any experience or thoughts on it please?

 

[splashgirl45]

are you sure its not a pollen reaction.... my mare used to hack out fine but about 5 mins from home she started head shaking. i thought it was because she was sweaty and didnt worry about it. i then moved her to another yard and she was head shaking quite violently all of the time she was being ridden. i got a nose net and it helped but didnt stop her completely. she didnt do it in winter at all so i took more notice when she started at the beginning of the season and she seemed most reactive near rape fields which were on most of our routes. after being at this yard for 8 years and having this problem every summer i moved to a different yard and was there 2 years before i lost her and for those 2 years she didnt head shake at all, there were no rape fields in that area...doesnt help you but might be worth taking note of where he head shakes..

 

[Annagain]

are you sure its not a pollen reaction.... my mare used to hack out fine but about 5 mins from home she started head shaking. i thought it was because she was sweaty and didnt worry about it. i then moved her to another yard and she was head shaking quite violently all of the time she was being ridden. i got a nose net and it helped but didnt stop her completely. she didnt do it in winter at all so i took more notice when she started at the beginning of the season and she seemed most reactive near rape fields which were on most of our routes. after being at this yard for 8 years and having this problem every summer i moved to a different yard and was there 2 years before i lost her and for those 2 years she didnt head shake at all, there were no rape fields in that area...doesnt help you but might be worth taking note of where he head shakes..

Thanks for the reply. I'm keeping an open mind but don't think it is as a nose net made no difference. I've had him since August and while it's improved at times those times haven't really co-incided with seasons. The weather doesn't seem to affect it either - he was pretty bad yesterday in light rain but was quite good on Tuesday when it was warm and dry (this is not a normal pattern, just an example of the randomness of it). He also doesn't do it on the lunge which I would think he would if it was pollen related?

 

[splashgirl45]

mine didnt do it at the yard until one year when the local farmer decided to put rape in the field next to our yard. that was my worst year....sounds like your isnt pollen but thought my experience would help to either rule in pollen or rule out. hope you can get it sorted out soon..

 

[Annagain]

mine didnt do it at the yard until one year when the local farmer decided to put rape in the field next to our yard. that was my worst year....sounds like your isnt pollen but thought my experience would help to either rule in pollen or rule out. hope you can get it sorted out soon..

Thank you - I do appreciate you posting. We do have some rape around us so it's a possibility but my instinct is it's something else.

 

[ed&arch]

My horse also does exactly this. Again, isn’t seasonal at all - never does it as soon as I get on but will do it twenty minutes or so into a session whether that is hacking or schooling.
I’ve got him in a Micklem, but question whether this is making any difference.
My friend who is a chiropractor has seen him recently, advised me there is some tightness in his poll but not enough to be causing pain as such?
Sometimes I think he’s just doing it as an excuse to get out of work and now it’s just become a habit, but it seems to be a very difficult habit to get under control.
He doesn’t do it in the field/stable/lunge etc.
I did wonder whether to buy one of those Pro Tech Masta Poll Guards to see if that made a difference?

I’ll keep an eye on the replies and hopefully someone has experienced the same, with a ‘solution’.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Given the pattern I don't think it will be but could his mane be getting caught somewhere? The Beast was dreadful before we hogged her, if you caught mane in you hand or on the rein or tucked under the saddle. Or her beard getting pulled by the noseband (partly why we tend to go without a noseband! ). It should have been obvious as she hated having her mane touched or groomed at all but it took me a while to figure out. Just thought I'd raise the possibility even though I doubt it is that!

 

[Annagain]

Given the pattern I don't think it will be but could his mane be getting caught somewhere? The Beast was dreadful before we hogged her, if you caught mane in you hand or on the rein or tucked under the saddle. Or her beard getting pulled by the noseband (partly why we tend to go without a noseband! ). It should have been obvious as she hated having her mane touched or groomed at all but it took me a while to figure out. Just thought I'd raise the possibility even though I doubt it is that!

That's something I should have included, sorry - I read something about training manes to the side they don't want to be on causing tightness through the neck and poll. I was trying to train it over and while he had a neck cover all winter it was sitting really nicely but I've since deliberately left it to do its own thing, there was no difference. I don't think anything's getting caught but will definitely double check. Thanks.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

B did this (and still can occasionally). I use a slightly bigger browband and HAVE to ensure that every eyelash, brow lash and nostril hair is clear and not trapped under the leather. Just one long lash not comfy and the head starts.
Chiro vet observed her being ridden and said it was also more a release of tension after she had been working in a frame, rather like a person shaking their fingers out after doing a lot of writing etc (not a good analogy, sorry, but hope you get gist?) as well as being very sensitive skinned too.
Hope you find a solution x

 

[rextherobber]

One of mine does this too, but has facial nerve damage from a kick, so maybe has an excuse particularly! Particularly hates rain on the face and is now very affected by tree pollen, wasn't affected at all pre-kick. I give antihistamines ( cetirizine) which seem to help. Found a Micklem helped initially , but stopped making a difference, have just borrowed a Horsemanship Saturn bridle, which has made an instant improvement. All trial and error...

 

[Caol Ila]

Could he be a trigeminal nerve headshaker? For a lot of horses with this condition, the randomness of the episodes, which can't be explained by anything else, is part of the diagnoses. It might be worth a Google and speaking to your vet.

 

[Annagain]

Could he be a trigeminal nerve headshaker? For a lot of horses with this condition, the randomness of the episodes, which can't be explained by anything else, is part of the diagnoses. It might be worth a Google and speaking to your vet.

It's something I've read up on and again, while keeping an open mind I'm not convinced it is this, I've watched videos and what he does is nowhere near as bad as what I've seen. It seems far more controlled and deliberate rather than the violent and involuntary nature of the videos. I appreciate they might be extreme cases and am more than happy to escalate it to the vet, I was just wondering if there were other things I haven't considered.

B did this (and still can occasionally). I use a slightly bigger browband and HAVE to ensure that every eyelash, brow lash and nostril hair is clear and not trapped under the leather. Just one long lash not comfy and the head starts.
Chiro vet observed her being ridden and said it was also more a release of tension after she had been working in a frame, rather like a person shaking their fingers out after doing a lot of writing etc (not a good analogy, sorry, but hope you get gist?) as well as being very sensitive skinned too.
Hope you find a solution x

I'll definitely double check all tack, TFF. Thanks

 

[Britestar]

I have one with a known poll issue, and this is how he behaves.
Ok for a while but then the flip top head starts. Worse when he's stressed ( schooling), or tired.
He has regular sessions with an equine osteo which helps enormously. I can tell when he's due as it becomes more frequent, and he nods in the stable.

For him the answer is plenty massages, and regular adjustment. Plus making sure I keep the stress down. Schooling is kept short, sometimes as little as 10 mins. No reason to get over stressed and tired, being aware of when he starts to nod in the stable.

 

[Annagain]

I have one with a known poll issue, and this is how he behaves.
Ok for a while but then the flip top head starts. Worse when he's stressed ( schooling), or tired.
He has regular sessions with an equine osteo which helps enormously. I can tell when he's due as it becomes more frequent, and he nods in the stable.

For him the answer is plenty massages, and regular adjustment. Plus making sure I keep the stress down. Schooling is kept short, sometimes as little as 10 mins. No reason to get over stressed and tired, being aware of when he starts to nod in the stable.

Does he ever start off doing it then settle or does it always get worse the more he does? It's very random with Charlie, sometimes he'll start then settle, other times he'll be good then start and other times it's on an off.

 

[ihatework]

I’d imagine he is holding some tension there. So he either does it to try and relieve when the bridle goes on or when he is getting a bit tired.

Id be very diligent about bridle fitting, headpiece and big enough browband. Regular Chiro and see if they will teach you how to massage it before you work, or potentially some release techniques.

Fingers crossed it should resolve naturally as he strengthens up and starts to work through

 

[Annagain]

I’d imagine he is holding some tension there. So he either does it to try and relieve when the bridle goes on or when he is getting a bit tired.

Id be very diligent about bridle fitting, headpiece and big enough browband. Regular Chiro and see if they will teach you how to massage it before you work, or potentially some release techniques.

Fingers crossed it should resolve naturally as he strengthens up and starts to work through

Thanks, this is my gut instinct too. I've just made an appointment for him with a bit and bridle fitter. Again, gut instinct is that he's happy with the bit he's in (bomber loose ring with lozenge) but the bridle might not be quite right. His (and my!) physio is very good and we have lots of exercises and massage to do between now and when she comes to see us again in 2 weeks. He was a bit wary of her doing things to him (he's a giant wuss) so I was doing a few of them under her supervision today - it's just hard to get a 16.3 giant to stretch up and forward at the same time. No carrot is long enough!

 

[Britestar]

Does he ever start off doing it then settle or does it always get worse the more he does? It's very random with Charlie, sometimes he'll start then settle, other times he'll be good then start and other times it's on an off.

I would say its a cumulative thing on the whole, though some days he does settle. Schooling and then stopping, then picking him up again is a definite trigger. He has worn a Micklem, which he is pretty settled in, though at the moment he is in a grackle, and he really likes that. Only seems to like loose ring bits, anything fixed and he leans on it. He has always been fussy about his head.
After his 1st osteo session he was so different, we liken it to him having a headache all his life until that point. I think that he get 'headachey' , which is when he starts to nod more, and is the signal that he is overdue a session. Its been harder this last year to get him done regularly (for obvs reasons).

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Interesting about the loose ring bits, B works best in a bomber happy tongue loose ring, having tried many different ones. Loose hunter noseband generally but a grackle for brisk stuff and jumping.
Tried a Micklem which she detested. (Tried 2 actually, but same violent response each time).
Chiro vet visits every 3 months and like Britestar above, I can really feel when we need him, things start going awry about 10 days to 2 weeks prior.

 

[Annagain]

I would say its a cumulative thing on the whole, though some days he does settle. Schooling and then stopping, then picking him up again is a definite trigger. He has worn a Micklem, which he is pretty settled in, though at the moment he is in a grackle, and he really likes that. Only seems to like loose ring bits, anything fixed and he leans on it. He has always been fussy about his head.
After his 1st osteo session he was so different, we liken it to him having a headache all his life until that point. I think that he get 'headachey' , which is when he starts to nod more, and is the signal that he is overdue a session. Its been harder this last year to get him done regularly (for obvs reasons).

Thanks, stoping and starting was definitely a trigger initially but doesn’t seem to be any more. Today, he seemed much better after a bit of a break. It’s all very random! Physio thinks regular treatments until he finds things easier and hopefully carries less tension around is the way to go, which I’m happy to try for a while. Who needs a pension anyway!

 

[Annagain]

Quick update. Whisper it quietly but I *think* we've cracked it, in the school at least. Today was session number 4 with no head tossing on the move. He still does it now and again if we stop for a break (for a minute or two, not just a halt) but I can live with that. We've had a little bit out hacking but I haven't actually hacked between these last four rides in the school so he might not do it out hacking now either.

All it took was a £65 bit fit session, a new £140 bridle, a new bit (cheap at £40!) and four fortnightly £65 physio sessions. Physio is happy to see how he goes from now on now that he seems a lot more comfortable.

Totally unrelated, I also cantered a whole course of (five, tiny!) jumps on Sunday. I've been really struggling (mentally) to canter at a fence since I've had him (only been jumping consistently since March due to lockdowns) so a whole course is huuuge. He really is a dude.