Pondering: actual pain verses remembered pain...

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Delicious_D

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So Delicia has been ridden twice now. I had a lesson today with a very experienced instructor with a keen eye to see if she can see what i feel. Overall it was very positive, but there is no doubt dee is not 'right'. She isnt in pain but on corners she is short on her right hind (she has SI disease on the right part on her pelvis and SI joint) and when she gets tense she coils up and compresses her spine and starts to do a very strange gait indeed.

However, despite all of this she is not in pain. There is no pain response at all and she has never been so relaxed or soft as she is now. After a long discussion is was thought she is no longer in pain per se, but that she remembers that if she performs this movement for example, it creates this much pain and therefore she reacts like that. A kind of x + Y = z senario.

So how do i deal with this? Delicia is in the VERY early stages of her rehab. We are focusing on correctness of both myself and her so she follows a uniform way of going to help her help herself. We focused on the quality of the walk steps, getting her to lenghten her spine and come more round over her back, and riding forwards into the halt. Naturally delicia either wants to leave her right hind behind in the halt, for take a very strange standard bred stance where her forelimbs are correct but her hind limbs are outstretched behind her. I hate it when she does this as to move off she has to make such an exagerated step it places an awful lot of stress on her limbs and back. Under our direction she started to be more correct and relaxed.

I suppose what i am asking is, do i ignore a clearly learnt behavioural reponse, where she is expecting if i ask her to work correctly it wil hurt and therefore she evades, and get her working soft and relaxed, with lots of positive reinforcement to teach her it wont hurt her, or do i back off a little and either let her mooch about in a fashion she chooses to (not something i want to do tbh), ir back off completely, give her more time and come back and try again?

My gut tells me if i back off completely, she will still exhibit the same responses 1, 2 and even 4 months down the line, as it is a habit rather then a response. However i am very nervous of pushing her incase she is actually in pain. Although i really dont think she is. Shes no longer pinning her ears back and she only dipped her back once when the wind got up her tail and she shot of at a brisk walk :D.

I know this forum has a wealth of knowledge, and i cannot be the only person going through this, can i ask how you would deal with this?


The vets want her ridden in the fashion i am, and she is cleared for this.

Gah, why are horses so complicated?
 
I don't think horses react the same way to remembered pain. I think they live in the moment and react to what is happening right now. Therefore I disagree that your mare is not in pain. My horse that was operated on for KS immediately walked better, even as soon as I picked him up. I was even back riding him. And then six months later, he suddenly started reacting to the girth and roller again. The pain was obviously back. Vets still try to tell me it's remembered pain, but I disagree. My horse would not have been better to start with. If it was remembered pain he would have been worse to start with and then got gradually better. With your girl, she may expect it to hurt to start with but should gradually learn that it doesn't. If she is still reacting the same way to a specific 'ask' then I would say that the pain is genuine. Just my opinion.
 
I'd also ask how you know she's not in pain. She's not moving right, there's a reason. Is your very experienced instructor used to rehabbing horses with Dee's problems? You say she's only been ridden twice and is showing this on corners. Is she "right" on the lunge? Is she "right" with the tiniest most balanced rider you can find on the lunge?
 
Hic - i know because i know my horse inside out, and it is VERY slight...most people cannot see it.
Delicia is having to rebuild all the muscle shes lost, she hasnt been ridden properly since the beginning of August and has always been a little funny using that right hind. The pessoa is amazing at getting her to use herself. But she s soft in the contact and not rushing. When shes in pain she runs through any bit.
 
Yes, I have a horse with SI injury/disease.

And how is she on the lunge? Short to the right? Shorter on tigher circles right?
 
My broadband is slow so I only watched 30 seconds of her on the right rein in walk. She is lame behind. Right hind is not stepping through so well as left hind.
 
Wagtail said:
If a horse is lame, it's lame. Otherwise you would get all these horses that have recovered from laminitis still hobbling round. But you don't. When they are sound, they are sound.
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Wagtail said:
I can only see the first and third one. The other doesn't come up for me.
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Sorry i just read what i wrote, i sound like a numpty! What i mean is, i am lame (myself i mean) when i am stiff due to lack of use etc but not in pain. It wears off over time. I can also be lame in the point where it hurts. I think that lameness you can see is stiffness. She is on box rest 22 or so hours a day. If it wasnt so wet she would be out in the field but i cannot risk her.

Ive changed the security to public viewing now x
 
Secret_Santa said:
Sorry i just read what i wrote, i sound like a numpty! What i mean is, i am lame (myself i mean) when i am stiff due to lack of use etc but not in pain. It wears off over time. I can also be lame in the point where it hurts. I think that lameness you can see is stiffness. She is on box rest 22 or so hours a day. If it wasnt so wet she would be out in the field but i cannot risk her.

Ive changed the security to public viewing now x
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I have SI dysfunction myself. I don't think you can generalise. I am never lame unless I am in pain that day. For me, it does not wear off. But after a good night's sleep I can feel one hundred percent again. The doctor told me that with SI function, the only cure is immobility. It is not like arthritis that benefits from regular exercise. So it would depend on what is wrong with your girl. If her SI is inflamed and tweaking nerves etc, then exercise will not help it.

So back to your original question. You asked the question because you are NOT actually sure she is not in pain, otherwise you would not have needed to ask the question. I am telling you that I believe what you describe is due to genuine pain. It may be far less than the pain she was previously in however, by the sound of it. Should you insist when she evades? Hard to answer that without seeing what she is doing really. But I think that I would proably go easy on her for a few weeks and see how she goes.
 
Wagtail said:
I have SI dysfunction myself. I don't think you can generalise. I am never lame unless I am in pain that day. For me, it does not wear off. But after a good night's sleep I can feel one hundred percent again. The doctor told me that with SI function, the only cure is immobility. It is not like arthritis that benefits from regular exercise. So it would depend on what is wrong with your girl. If her SI is inflamed and tweaking nerves etc, then exercise will not help it.

So back to your original question. You asked the question because you are NOT actually sure she is not in pain, otherwise you would not have needed to ask the question. I am telling you that I believe what you describe is due to genuine pain. It may be far less than the pain she was previously in however, by the sound of it. Should you insist when she evades? Hard to answer that without seeing what she is doing really. But I think that I would proably go easy on her for a few weeks and see how she goes.
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See i personally have DDD, RSD and issues with my leg (long story!)

It was the vet who said the SI needs to be worked, with the shockwave hopefully breaking down new bone formation and the tildren being used to stop new bone being formed and for its anti inflamatory effects.

Im going to take it easy, she was only ridden in walk for 1/2 today and 15 mins the time before. She is having another assessment with the vet in early january.

I was reading threads about your boys Kissing Spines and i agree i have seen a huge improvement in her way of going. But going back to muscle memory, it could be that she is not necessarily lame but where she's had low grade pain for a long time before it flaired, she never used the leg correctly and now the muscles were formed in a way to suit her before hand?

I know her issues will never go and that its purely management, im just trying to assertain that what i am doing is helping not hindering...never easy is it!
 
Afraid I agree with wagtail - she's definitely off on the right hind and it probably *is* pain. I say this because one of my girls had/has chronic SI dysfunction. When she was sore, she was lame; when she wasn't, she got really brave about using herself again. The difference from day to day, depending on how she felt showed up in her gait every time. If it's just stiffness, protective habit, it tends to wear off within a few circuits. If not, then not. What treatment is D on at the minute?
 
wyrdsister said:
Afraid I agree with wagtail - she's definitely off on the right hind and it probably *is* pain. I say this because one of my girls had/has chronic SI dysfunction. When she was sore, she was lame; when she wasn't, she got really brave about using herself again. The difference from day to day, depending on how she felt showed up in her gait every time. If it's just stiffness, protective habit, it tends to wear off within a few circuits. If not, then not. What treatment is D on at the minute?
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I can see it, i wish i had video'd her when she was at the vets. Would have been good to compare. :(

Dee gets easier as the work goes on and im VERY careful now warming her up/cooling off etc and ensure her back remains warm at all times.

Delicia has had one lot of tildren, 2x shockwave treatments and steroid injections. Shes being reassessed in january to see how shes doing/coping and to see her suitability for more tildren/steroids etc.

At the moment we are walking in hand, arena turn out as fields too wet and muddy (worried about her slipping etc), lunging in the pessoa and over trotting poles and introducing a little ridden work.

I know she isnt right on that right hind, and she hasnt been for some time...im going to put her on some bute i think and see if she's the same.
 
*hic* said:
Yup but broadband speed means she's taking half a step every five seconds or so, makes it just a tad tricky to tell how she's moving:D
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TBF, i have broadband and it isnt much better at times ;) i think its faceache personally :)

Either that or dee is very stilted in movement and i need a vet asap! :D
 
A bute trial might clarify things for you - I was actually told to have mine on danilon for the first 8 weeks of the rehab programme while she got accustomed to using herself again and started to alter her way of going to develop the right muscles instead of the wrong ones. It might also be worth finding a really good physio. I went through four, all highly recommended and one recommended by our vets, before finding one who seemed to suit my lady and who really helped make her more comfortable. I'll admit now that she never came right, but it wasn't her SI damage responsible in the end. Maybe talk to your vets about short term danilon/bute use and getting a physio involved too? Best of luck - Dee is beautiful.
 
Secret_Santa said:
I can see it, i wish i had video'd her when she was at the vets. Would have been good to compare. :(

Dee gets easier as the work goes on and im VERY careful now warming her up/cooling off etc and ensure her back remains warm at all times.

Delicia has had one lot of tildren, 2x shockwave treatments and steroid injections. Shes being reassessed in january to see how shes doing/coping and to see her suitability for more tildren/steroids etc.

At the moment we are walking in hand, arena turn out as fields too wet and muddy (worried about her slipping etc), lunging in the pessoa and over trotting poles and introducing a little ridden work.

I know she isnt right on that right hind, and she hasnt been for some time...im going to put her on some bute i think and see if she's the same.
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Thoughts: no idea if you've tried it or are averse to them but my SI boy adores his equilibrium massage pad - possibly because it warms the back. Not all horses like it though, my mare loathes it.

When you say introducing a little ridden work, is this to a schedule advised by the vet as it strikes me that 15 mins first session and half an hour the next is not a gentle introduction even just in walk:eek: I'd be far more inclined to introduce it at, say, 5 minutes on day one, increasing by a minute every other day or so, noting how she felt and backing off by four days (ie two lots of a minute) each time she came out less good. I know she's not a happy hacker but I'd be tempted to keep her in straight lines but active until she's up to about 20 minutes walking (ie 10 minutes away from yard, turn round and 10 minutes back!) before introducing any ridden corners. When it came to introducing trot I'd start that in straight lines as well.
 
*hic* said:
Thoughts: no idea if you've tried it or are averse to them but my SI boy adores his equilibrium massage pad - possibly because it warms the back. Not all horses like it though, my mare loathes it.

When you say introducing a little ridden work, is this to a schedule advised by the vet as it strikes me that 15 mins first session and half an hour the next is not a gentle introduction even just in walk:eek: I'd be far more inclined to introduce it at, say, 5 minutes on day one, increasing by a minute every other day or so, noting how she felt and backing off by four days (ie two lots of a minute) each time she came out less good. I know she's not a happy hacker but I'd be tempted to keep her in straight lines but active until she's up to about 20 minutes walking (ie 10 minutes away from yard, turn round and 10 minutes back!) before introducing any ridden corners. When it came to introducing trot I'd start that in straight lines as well.
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The vets want her ridden on an hours hack :P, i reminded them of how she hacks would probably do more harm then good!

ive tried an equissage on her, at first she tolerated it then hated it.

She is walked in hand for over an hour and does 20 mins schooling, she is fit enough but i dont want to push her for obvious reasons.

I take on board what you have said and will adjust accordingly. :) Thank you
 
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