Position of rider: my instructors contradict one another

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bluewhippet

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Just wondered if this was common. I have a great instructor - very experienced ex-very successful dressage rider who comes out to teach me on my very green horse. He is my first horse and she is great at showing me how to school him slowly and pointing out things to me that i can work on - she has taught me so much.

Where position is concerned, she says she is not a great one for correcting for the sake of it, unless it is directly affecting the performance of the partnership. I am very unsure of my position because I had a huge break from riding and when I returned found that my leg position was far too forward, heals exageratedly down and sitting too far back - sort of arm chair. Which I tried my best to correct.

She wanted me to ride longer, deeper and sit on seat bones properly, and bear down more.

I was feeling out of balance and left behind on my very spooky arab (who I get on brilliantly with - that is not the issue) and so booked some lunge lessons at a well known training/exam centre. Had the first one today and the teacher was getting me to sit less on my seat bones, more forward towards my fork, and legs right right back - what I have been trying not to do. By the end of the lesson felt far more in balance, lighter and less left behind and I could feel the horse going better.

got back and had a quick hack trying out the position she had drummed into me. Felt far more natural and I felt lighter but also more secure. But I know my dressage woman (who is great) would want me to sit deeper and longer (but not get too het up about the whole thing either).

Any comments welcome, a little confused!
 
As a BHSIT I would always advise people to look at their position, it is crucial to get the correct balance and performance from your horse. Sounds like you were given good advice on your lunge lesson, and that the aim was to stop you leaning back and place your weight more evenly between your two seat bones and your fork. If you try to ride with your stirrups too long for the depth of seat you have developed you will not be in balance for your spooky arab. At the end of the day, go with what you feel has been most effective and works for you.

Good luck:)
 
As above ^^^^

Can you take your youngster to have lessons where you had the lunge lesson.

Your position is very important and needs to be in balance so that you can apply the aids effectively.
 
I think I would go along with the lunge lesson instructor. I believe that your position greatly affects the way your horse goes. When I had classical lessons which involved minor adjustments to position - something just as simple as moving one shoulder back a little, or lifting the ribcage a fraction made all the difference to the way my horse moved. I was also taught not to ride with the stirrups too long before I was ready. Good luck!
 
Holly Hocks said:
I think I would go along with the lunge lesson instructor. I believe that your position greatly affects the way your horse goes. When I had classical lessons which involved minor adjustments to position - something just as simple as moving one shoulder back a little, or lifting the ribcage a fraction made all the difference to the way my horse moved. I was also taught not to ride with the stirrups too long before I was ready. Good luck!
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Thanks. I am just trying very hard to get myself right and have always had a bit of an inferiority complex because I don't ride very long. And so I was trying very hard to get longer and deeper and was finding it incredibly difficult. My hands have always been quite soft, I think, despite my many faults, and recently I have got left behind a lot and have had to find balance in the reins in desperation.

Such a relief today to go back to something more natural. Even though I had to push my legs farther back than I am in any way used to, the balance between leg position and seat felt so easy and right when I was out and about that it was great. Going back for some more punishment next week - only half an hour on the lunge but definitely gruelling - never done it before.
 
bluewhippet said:
She wanted me to ride longer, deeper and sit on seat bones properly, and bear down more.
Click to expand...

I would say this is technically more correct but if you "tuck your bottom under" instead of "bearing down" then you will find you're driving your horse through more.

I get told- ankle and hip in alignment- when you look down you should just not beable to see your toe, hip and shoulders in allignment but your shoulders should be slightly further back and your bottom should be tucked underneath you. This opens your hips and releases your ankles and knees.

My mum was a dressage rider so this is how I have been taught...
 
I am not surprised that your confused, i hope i can shed some light on what has happened and make you feel more sure of your chose of instructor.
As an instructor myself i feel postion is the extremely important.
How i teach it depends on the riders proplems and they learning technic everyone is different.
Firstly your dressage instructor has not corrected you balance issues and by making you ride long cause you to lose balance and fall behind the movement. You seat is weak and even though her thoughts are correct your balance and seat cannot maintain this position.
The instructor that has given you lunge lessons has moved you forward, you should not be on your fork, you should be on top of your seat bones like a plug.
But by overcorrecting your postional fault has enabled you to find your balance.This enables you to communicate and control your boby more effectively.
Make sure that this over correction doesn't in its self cause more problems, you will feel better because you are now more correct and more able to maintain balance.
Working without stirrupa will strenghth your seat, make sure you don't ride too long in the stirrup as this can cause as many problems as riding too short.
As your seat becomes deeper your leg length will get longer without lose of balance.
I hope i have manages to help, its hard being an instructor we can get missunderstood so easily, teaching feel and seat is very difficult.
 
I think it's difficult to say whether the advice is right or not without being able to see you but it sounds like the lunge lesson you had was good and worthwhile, especailly if you feel more balanced afterwards. I've always understood position to be of utmost importance though, as it is really your 'position' that should do the 'riding' so to speak.

I've found the book Balance in Movement: How to Achieve the Perfect Seat by Susanne von Dietze to be extremely helpful.
 
May just be different phrases...
From the 'bear down more' do you think your instructor was trying to get you to engage your core?
This keeps your seat light etc..
Seat should be a 3 point thing, and whilst Mary Wanless does use bear down, she also talks about the importance of getting the seat bones right, lean too far back they point slightly forwards, too far forwards they point slightly back etc.

I used to use 3-4 instructors, and take advantage of PC tuition, I think its important that you take what works best for you, but also IF your instructor is open to it, (I had 2 that weren't particularly open to me using other trainers... :rolleyes: ) You get the chance to discuss it, as it may ultimately be for the same aim, but just explained differently...

Sorry for all the waffle! :o
 
Trouble4125 said:
I would say this is technically more correct but if you "tuck your bottom under" instead of "bearing down" then you will find you're driving your horse through more.

I get told- ankle and hip in alignment- when you look down you should just not beable to see your toe, hip and shoulders in allignment but your shoulders should be slightly further back and your bottom should be tucked underneath you. This opens your hips and releases your ankles and knees.

My mum was a dressage rider so this is how I have been taught...
Click to expand...

That is the way my dressage teacher teaches me - exactly. And the lunge one was teaching me to come forward towards my fork (perhaps to correct faults of other position) and get my stirrups shorter and further back.

Still confused!
 
frustrated said:
I am not surprised that your confused, i hope i can shed some light on what has happened and make you feel more sure of your chose of instructor.
As an instructor myself i feel postion is the extremely important.
How i teach it depends on the riders proplems and they learning technic everyone is different.
Firstly your dressage instructor has not corrected you balance issues and by making you ride long cause you to lose balance and fall behind the movement. You seat is weak and even though her thoughts are correct your balance and seat cannot maintain this position.
The instructor that has given you lunge lessons has moved you forward, you should not be on your fork, you should be on top of your seat bones like a plug.
But by overcorrecting your postional fault has enabled you to find your balance.This enables you to communicate and control your boby more effectively.
Make sure that this over correction doesn't in its self cause more problems, you will feel better because you are now more correct and more able to maintain balance.
Working without stirrupa will strenghth your seat, make sure you don't ride too long in the stirrup as this can cause as many problems as riding too short.
As your seat becomes deeper your leg length will get longer without lose of balance.
I hope i have manages to help, its hard being an instructor we can get missunderstood so easily, teaching feel and seat is very difficult.
Click to expand...

Think you are probably right that the lunge teaching is going on and on about sitting towards the fork as i was doing the opposite before. Do still think that they are after slightly different goals though!
 
see i'd go with the dressage rider.

you need to sit straight regardles and your legs need to be underneith you, not behind you and it sounds as if the lunge instructors are making you sit wrong. maybe your normal instructor didnt litterally mean bear down, but as said above, means sit deeper, use your core and ride through your seat stronger. i prefere to see people sitting 'in' their horses then on 'top' of their horses if that makes sence? (i know what i mean but im rubbish at getting a point across!)

IMO if your straight, the horse will be straight.
 
BSJAlove said:
see i'd go with the dressage rider.

you need to sit straight regardles and your legs need to be underneith you, not behind you and it sounds as if the lunge instructors are making you sit wrong. maybe your normal instructor didnt litterally mean bear down, but as said above, means sit deeper, use your core and ride through your seat stronger. i prefere to see people sitting 'in' their horses then on 'top' of their horses if that makes sence? (i know what i mean but im rubbish at getting a point across!)

IMO if your straight, the horse will be straight.
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I know what you mean and I think that is what my first teacher is trying to get me to do and she thinks that with practice I will be able to do this. And My second teacher is looking at the fact that I get left behind and wants me to sit lighter and more perched and balanced.

And I am thoroughly confused!
 
I really understand where you are coming from, I spent years with different instructors all telling me different things - they could essentially understand what was wrong but not how to put it right.

I eventually found a specific biomechanics teacher, who worked just on the position. This means now that I can use other instructors and interpret what they are trying to say. For me, for example, if they say get your lower leg further back, I now know this means to get my Upper Leg straighter, then I can get me lower leg further back!!

Not all Mary Wanless RWYM teachers are brilliant, but there are some brilliant RWYM teachers out there, if you are confused, I would travel if necessary to have a few lessons with a really good biomechanics teacher (RWYM teacher poss) and then you will be able to interpret what your other instructors are trying to tell you.

Most instructors are looking for the same result, just those who have been trained in the biomechanics of the horse/rider will maybe understand the real problem so get you there a hell of a lot quicker and give you really definitive answers/reasoning on why they are asking you to do what it is. If you want to tip you toe in the water, go onto the Mary Wanless site and buy the first DVD on riding. It will maybe show you whether thats the way for you to go? Or PM me if you want a few suggestions on instructors.
 
Thanks, Canteron, I think that is very true. They can see what is wrong - but just not exactly how best to emphasise the changes.

Best thing about the lunge lesson was that when I got my leg right back I could feel my upper leg very long and was taking a lot of my weight in it when I was rising etc.
 
bluewhippet said:
Best thing about the lunge lesson was that when I got my leg right back I could feel my upper leg very long and was taking a lot of my weight in it when I was rising etc.
Click to expand...

See, this to me sounds as if you were more balanced in the lunge lesson. As RWYM has been bought up, one of the ideas is 'weight into the thigh', of stretching your thigh down and away from you, and keeping it strong and 'on', therefore taking more of your weight and enabling to hold yourself as opposed to relying entirely on the horse to balance you.
Might sound obvious since everyone seems to use it - but imagine the horse was taken out from underneath you, with the first instructor's position would you land on your feet? Would you with the second instructor's? Go for that shoulder-hip-heel line.

The fact that you could feel the difference in your horse seems to say it all. Yes, you need to feel your seatbones, but not necessarily to the extent that you're squishing down into her with them. I suppose it's all personal opinion - just go with what feels right, and what feels right for your horse.
 
I totally empathise with you. I have battled for years with this. As someone who spent many years learning a specific 'school' of thought, when I went and started training with people who were riding and training up to GP level they contradicted just about everything I had been previously taught. It cased me no end of anguish and I shed many tears of confusion over it. In the end I decided to go back to an instructor from the original 'school' of thought and do the opposite of the words she was using, and that I had been taught, which got exactly the result she was after. This included riding 2 holes longer than she would have had me.

Best thing that happened for me was taking a break of about 4 years fom regular riding, and then going straight in to stuff with gentle walk and trot with no stirrups, working on being long and loose through the thigh, with a slight bend in my knee so that if the horse was taken away, I'd land on my feet. The hip-heel thing is tricky. To me having the ankle bone in line with the trochanter is a totally different position to having the back of the heel in line with the trochanter and is the different between collection and working paces.
 
All the above advice presupposes that the saddle fits the rider. In a sport where even the slightest of movement of weight has a dramatic effect,people often ignore the stirrup bar position . If it is too far from the seat for the rider ,there is no way that a correct position can be maintained . A short legged rider on a large saddle has no chance. Thin stirrup leathers also shift the foot forward encouraging a "chair"seat. I suggest that as an experiment,the OP tries sliding the leathers back down the stirrup bar and sees how it affects position . Try this in a school as this puts more load on the end of the bar which could in theory ,snap. As I say ,this is just an experiment to check the position and not a solution. I use wellep bars which are adjustable,even on a jumping saddle.
 
What we have to remember is that we haven't actually seen this rider and 'her faults'. Was the rider being asked to sit more forward because she was doing what the dressage rider had told her to do or was she riding as normal? The riders position should never be over corrected - place the rider in the correct position, which to the rider may feel weird but that is because it is different from normal. In time if the rider is diligent in checking and correcting their position the correct position will feel normal.

Correcting the riders position takes time and lengthening the stirrups is not always a good idea - best to correct basic faults, then work the rider without stirrups to help lengthen the leg. Shoulders should definately NOT be behind the hip line - dressage rider or not - this is not correct. Try standing upright leaning your shoulders further back than your hips - you will fall over backwards.

Ear, Shoulder, hip and heel is the line you want to achieve to have your balance correct. In between, the small of your back may be too far forward rolling you onto your fork, then it is important to bring the top of your pelvis back so that you sit on your seat bones more.

Sitting straight and light are the most important things to remember. With legs in the right place you will feel more balanced and able to apply your leg aids effectively.
 
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