Position of the head in dressage movements

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Lola13

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Hello everyone,
I am training dressage for some time and I am very confused with the head position of the horse in dressage. The texbooks describe and show a difference between gaits types but most of the riders ride every single movement with head on the vertical or even slightly bellow. Some ride with slightly in front of the vertical but thats it.

What texbooks show:
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/true_collection/trot_continuum.gif

What I see on the pictures of the competitions:
https://horsesportnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/dujardin-valegro4-rau_0.jpg
http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...bb56befba43/1438714918481/f2.jpg?format=1000w

Could anyone explain why there is no difference in head positions in different movements, and why there is so much heads bellow the vertical?
 
As a very non-dressage person, I stopped trying to understand head carriage as I was brought up being told correct position was with poll highest point and in so many photos it seems as though (in showing as well) people are rewarded for having the crest the highest point which would surely infer the horse was overbent?
 
Sylvia Loch, in one of her books, says that the poll should be the highest point, and that the head should be perpendicular to the neck - e.g. the neck and the head should make a 90 degree angle (at the front of the head, not the cheeks). Being broken at the 3rd (aka having the crest highest) can actually lead to joint and muscle problems, as well as being awkward for the horse; imagine always walking around with your back bent, it's not comfortable!
Some showing judges are apparently starting to reward those with polls highest and put down over bent horses, so I've been told.
 
In the shot of CD and Valegro in piaffe
He's showing a slightly incorrect postion at the top of the neck ( but only if you the be all and end all of everything is where the horse has it's poll ) but the rest of what's going on is lovely.
So in that second in time it was less than 'correct '
Horses are living breathing moving things and a fixed not moving head carriage would not be desirable or comfortable for the horse .
In the second shot the horse in very short in the neck and over bent and has ducked behind the contact and you can clearly that the connection through the rein has been lost .
I think it's a young horse on a big occasion for it and they often duck behind and go short in the neck when they are tense and weakness often leads to less than perfect outlines as the horse learns and develops .
I am interested OP do you think the rider of the grey horse is training the horse to go like that ?
Because that's a huge assumption from a picture.
There's a big difference between riding a horse and looking at a picture someone's drawn .
 
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Goldenstar said:
In the shot of CD and Valegro in piaffe
He's showing a slightly incorrect postion at the top of the neck ( but only if you the be all and end all of everything is where the horse has it's poll ) but the rest of what's going on is lovely.
So in that second in time it was less than 'correct '
Horses are living breathing moving things and a fixed not moving head carriage would not be desirable or comfortable for the horse .
In the second shot the horse in very short in the neck and over bent and has ducked behind the contact and you can clearly that the connection through the rein has been lost .
I think it's a young horse on a big occasion for it and they often duck behind and go short in the neck when they are tense and weakness often leads to less than perfect outlines as the horse learns and develops .
I am interested OP do you think the rider of the grey horse is training the horse to go like that ?
Because that's a huge assumption from a picture.
There's a big difference between riding a horse and looking at a picture someone's drawn .
Click to expand...

This is a really good point, and why I didn't address those pics directly - it's hard to tell a horse's entire way of going from one snapshot in time. From what I've seen of Valero (admittedly not much, I love doing dressage but watching it, well, it's not always that interesting!) he generally seems to have a really nice frame, but sometimes seems to be broken at the third.
I'm not an expert by any means, and while I know the theory behind a lot of things, in practice I can't always get it! So I'm not going to judge other people, but just try and ride how I feel I should be riding :)
 
Goldenstar said:
In the shot of CD and Valegro in piaffe
He's showing a slightly incorrect postion at the top of the neck ( but only if you the be all and end all of everything is where the horse has it's poll ) but the rest of what's going on is lovely.
So in that second in time it was less than 'correct '
Horses are living breathing moving things and a fixed not moving head carriage would not be desirable or comfortable for the horse .
In the second shot the horse in very short in the neck and over bent and has ducked behind the contact and you can clearly that the connection through the rein has been lost .
I think it's a young horse on a big occasion for it and they often duck behind and go short in the neck when they are tense and weakness often leads to less than perfect outlines as the horse learns and develops .
I am interested OP do you think the rider of the grey horse is training the horse to go like that ?
Because that's a huge assumption from a picture.
There's a big difference between riding a horse and looking at a picture someone's drawn .
Click to expand...

That second in time? Valegros poll is always lower, excepts some rare times in extended trot.

Fixed head position is just what they are trying to achieve, same in extended, collected etc as well as piaffe, passage etc. And you are right, it is not comfortable for the horse, that is why I asked why are they doing it.

No I dont think she is doing it on purpouse during the test, I think it is the result of the "deep, low and round" exercises which are for me gentler rollkur.

There are so manny younger riders doing the "deep, low and round" exercise and it affects the carriage badly and also some movements. In my country Ive seen people on higher levels not able to do simple streching because the horse automaticly goes very deep behind the vertical as soon as the reins loosen up a bit, and their horses also have lower polls just like Valegro. I guess after some thinking, that is why the head of the horse always stay in the same position, so they cover up the bad training. (In my country foreign judges look at deep, low and round" and its consequences like something really bad, I dont understand when a grand prix rider does it its great.)

Carl Hester covers it up well but because he has a lot of experience, and Charlotte cannot cover it up because she doesnt have that amount of experience.

There are pictures not just drawings of old masters and the carriage of the horse doesnt look even similar.

http://www.europeanhorsemanship.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/horsemen-nuno-oliveira.jpg
 
They are trying to achieve a still head postion not fixed they will be flexing the poll and influencing a horse neck all the time .
While I am not in anyway saying that you don't see too many horses over bent I do struggle to understand the obsession with horses heads in threads on here .
TBH when I am riding at my best I will rarely be thinking about where the horse has it's head .
 
Goldenstar said:
They are trying to achieve a still head postion not fixed they will be flexing the poll and influencing a horse neck all the time .
While I am not in anyway saying that you don't see too many horses over bent I do struggle to understand the obsession with horses heads in threads on here .
TBH when I am riding at my best I will rarely be thinking about where the horse has it's head .
Click to expand...

I expressed myself wrong then, they are trying and achieving to have same head position in all the movements, why I am asking this, because of everything I have been learning about dressage, even the certified dressage textbooks for dressage licences have descriptions of all the different movements with head position described for each one of them, and they are different. And I can find hardly any correct examples nowdays except old masters. Head position is very important just like positions of any other part of the body. Why is leg position important and head is not?

Same head position from movement after movement:



Dressage then, and dressage now, for me de-evolution.

 
That's your view , personally I don't think everything was rosy in the past it's just the issues where different and the exposure of the top riders was less .
And I am old enough to remember the dressage 'past '.
I strive live in the moment with my own horses I train them as I like and don't worry about much else .
 
In the shot of CD and Valegro in piaffe
He's showing a slightly incorrect postion at the top of the neck ( but only if you the be all and end all of everything is where the horse has it's poll ) but the rest of what's going on is lovely.
So in that second in time it was less than 'correct .
Click to expand...

I completely agree it's just a moment in time. But I don't agree that the rest is lovely. The foreleg which is on the floor shows that he is rocking his weight forward onto his forehand. His bum is in what I think of as the 'dog with worms' tuck, giving a false impression that he is taking more weight on his hocks than he is. If he was truly supporting himself on his hocks at that moment in time, his foreleg would be perpendicular to the floor and his head would be higher. As a moment in time, it's a moment of less than top quality piaffe.
 
ycbm said:
I completely agree it's just a moment in time. But I don't agree that the rest is lovely. The foreleg which is on the floor shows that he is rocking his weight forward onto his forehand. His bum is in what I think of as the 'dog with worms' tuck, giving a false impression that he is taking more weight on his hocks than he is. If he was truly supporting himself on his hocks at that moment in time, his foreleg would be perpendicular to the floor and his head would be higher. As a moment in time, it's a moment of less than top quality piaffe.
Click to expand...

Moment in time?

This picture shows different steps in her piaffe, so not a moment, it is entire piaffe:



The rules from British Dressage Members Hand Book:




One example of good head position:

 
Goldenstar said:
That's your view , personally I don't think everything was rosy in the past it's just the issues where different and the exposure of the top riders was less .
And I am old enough to remember the dressage 'past '.
I strive live in the moment with my own horses I train them as I like and don't worry about much else .
Click to expand...

Not just my oppinion, if something is against the rules of the rulebook than it is a step backward. I am not saying everything was rosy in the past, but most top riders were riding correctly.

Because people nowdays train their horses as they like we are in this position, if you are in dressage sport you should follow the rules, they are not here for no reason.

Even if you ride horses for pleasure that doesnt mean everything you think of is ok or the horse, old masters CREATED dressage, and not for the sake of sport but horses fitness and better communication, and it should be used primarely for that. If you bypass the rules for a quicker,easier (false) results, than you are not doing real dressage.
 
Lola13 said:
Moment in time?

This picture shows different steps in her piaffe, so not a moment, it is entire piaffe:



The rules from British Dressage Members Hand Book:




One example of good head position:

Click to expand...

I find it rather ironic that you have selected a picture of Adelinde and Parzival to demonstrate "good head position". I don't have anything against Adelinde, I think she did extremely well and is a very good rider, but there are some very unflattering pictures of her floating around if you take a dim view of BTV!!!
 
Matafleur said:
I find it rather ironic that you have selected a picture of Adelinde and Parzival to demonstrate "good head position". I don't have anything against Adelinde, I think she did extremely well and is a very good rider, but there are some very unflattering pictures of her floating around if you take a dim view of BTV!!!
Click to expand...

I agree, this picture is from the page with unflattering pictures also, this picture is "moment in time" where that one looks good in comparison of all the other pictures. I had difficulty finding a modern rider who rides correctly by the dressage rules, so I posted this picture. I only said that it is an example of how a head approximately should be positioned. I didnt say it shows a rider who follows the rules. Next picture is how her riding really looks like: http://horsetalk.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/adelinde-Cornelissen-parzival2.jpg
 
One thing to remember is that no one is claiming these horses are perfect. If the judges considered their way of going to be perfect they would all be getting 10s for every movement. However they don't which reflects the fact that they don't always perform absolutely correctly. They all still have more to learn and can improve.
 
chestnut cob said:
One thing to remember is that no one is claiming these horses are perfect. If the judges considered their way of going to be perfect they would all be getting 10s for every movement. However they don't which reflects the fact that they don't always perform absolutely correctly. They all still have more to learn and can improve.
Click to expand...

Noting in this world is perfect, but this amazing and wonderfull horses could move CORRECTLY and HEALTHY if their owners/trainers/riders only cared, and they could really earn their high points. For me a rider which rides a horse low and deep doesnt deserve 9s and 10s, actually they dont deserve to compete at all but thats another story. Look at the beginners sometimes which ride in collection, you will rarely see overbent horse, so why is a grand prix rider unable to achieve correct collection, a base of complete dressage. Because of their bad training methods which serve to hurry up the proces. Everybody used to admire Totilas (and it is justified because he is such a special wonderfull horse) but very few saw also how poor this wonderfull creature is (even after harsh rollkur pictures) until he started braking down.

If you had the opportunity to ride/own a wonderfull and talented horse like this

[Content removed]

Would you allow/do this?

[Content removed]

And this to him, just to hurry up the training process?



And do you really think this pictures above are because the horse is not perfect?

Only thing I see is a terribly insensitive rider who only has his mind set on one thing, a medal/ribbon.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lola13 said:
Hello everyone,
I am training dressage for some time and I am very confused with the head position of the horse in dressage. The texbooks describe and show a difference between gaits types but most of the riders ride every single movement with head on the vertical or even slightly bellow. Some ride with slightly in front of the vertical but thats it.

What texbooks show:
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/true_collection/trot_continuum.gif

What I see on the pictures of the competitions:
https://horsesportnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/dujardin-valegro4-rau_0.jpg
http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...bb56befba43/1438714918481/f2.jpg?format=1000w

Could anyone explain why there is no difference in head positions in different movements, and why there is so much heads bellow the vertical?
Click to expand...

Guys guys, I think we all know it all just needs chucking out.

OP, IF you are training for the first time and you are getting confused, please just stick to classical masters and Sylvia Loch is a good place to start. At least her books quote the old masters and you can then study at your leisure. Go to classical clinics, spend your money in things you believe in and things that feel right in your heart. Not the things that get high marks in a test. The people judging in the FEI are as bad as the poor riders so you will never learn anything noble there.

People will criticise. The fact is, the FEI are trying to raise the profile of dressage and losing it's followers. The best way, is to walk away. Dressage to he public is boring. That is why they are bringing in the circus acts to draw in the money. Leave the tent. It's clearly time to start again.
 
chestnut cob said:
One thing to remember is that no one is claiming these horses are perfect. If the judges considered their way of going to be perfect they would all be getting 10s for every movement. However they don't which reflects the fact that they don't always perform absolutely correctly. They all still have more to learn and can improve.
Click to expand...

One more thing on the quality of the horse, actually a picture.

First picture: elite grand prix horse in top form, one of the best riders in the world, two bits, years of daily training using most modern methods.- OVERBENT

Second picture: chunky older horse who spends most of his time eating, average rider, no bits and bridle, some training on liberty using clasical methods.- COLLECTION

 
tallyho! said:
Guys guys, I think we all know it all just needs chucking out.

OP, IF you are training for the first time and you are getting confused, please just stick to classical masters and Sylvia Loch is a good place to start. At least her books quote the old masters and you can then study at your leisure. Go to classical clinics, spend your money in things you believe in and things that feel right in your heart. Not the things that get high marks in a test. The people judging in the FEI are as bad as the poor riders so you will never learn anything noble there.

People will criticise. The fact is, the FEI are trying to raise the profile of dressage and losing it's followers. The best way, is to walk away. Dressage to he public is boring. That is why they are bringing in the circus acts to draw in the money. Leave the tent. It's clearly time to start again.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your insight, I agree on everything you said. I am asking and saying all this because I have become forced to do classical modern dressage to support my family (I used to do only dressage on liberty) and I am scared that modern cruel methods will be expected of me, I am trying to find arguments that will in a nice way say "no bloody way I will ever do that to a horse". If it will still be expected o me to use the methods I will walk away, and find anything else to do, just not that.
 
Illusion100 said:
For me, I want a horse to be slightly above the vertical.

On the vertical is ok with me.

I detest behind the vertical. I can't fathom why it became 'fashionable'. Disgrace imo.
Click to expand...

Why is slightly above the vertical okay but slightly behind not? Both are as incorrect as each other and both would cause 'physical' issues? Is it people think above the vertical causes less issues? When if you look at it above would probably cause worse issues as the back would hollow which meant it wouldn't carry a rider properly leading to spinal damage/issues. Just my musings really.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Why is slightly above the vertical okay but slightly behind not? Both are as incorrect as each other and both would cause 'physical' issues? Is it people think above the vertical causes less issues? When if you look at it above would probably cause worse issues as the back would hollow which meant it wouldn't carry a rider properly leading to spinal damage/issues. Just my musings really.
Click to expand...


The horse's skeleton is built for it to carry its nose in front of the vertical. Horses at liberty spend very little time with the face at or behind the vertical. I doubt if it's damaging, but I'm not sure anyone has proved that being mildly overbent is either, and it is now part and parcel of modern dressage, rightly or wrongly.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Yes but in the wild a horse is not carrying a rider on it's back. A hollow horse can not carry a rider correctly which in turn should be damaging.
Click to expand...

Yes that's very true .
The most important thing you can do for your ridden horse is learn how to develop it's back well .
Oh it's the second the first is learn how to look after it's feet .
 
shortstuff99 said:
Yes but in the wild a horse is not carrying a rider on it's back. A hollow horse can not carry a rider correctly which in turn should be damaging.
Click to expand...

Nose out does not automatically mean hollow. Showjumpers are not normally hollow as they bascule over a fence but you won't see them jumping well and overbent.
 
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Illusion100 said:
For me, I want a horse to be slightly above the vertical.

On the vertical is ok with me.

I detest behind the vertical. I can't fathom why it became 'fashionable'. Disgrace imo.
Click to expand...

Great for you, your horse and the future of dressage, wish you lots of luck :)
 
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