Possible kissing spine... why??

Abi90

Abi90

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Baby Rosie has been going so well. Then 2 weeks ago she started throwing her head a lot so I suspected she was sore so she had the physio. She was sore. She had 3 days off then lunged and seemed much happier. Get on her and the head tossing has gone but now she won’t go forwards in trot and refusing to canter.

Book saddle fitter for next available slot in 2 weeks and call the vet, in case it’s teeth. It’s not teeth. She trots up sound but is subtly lame on her left hind when flexed. She has a slightly sore back.

The vet thinks kissing spine, so she’s going for x rays on Monday.

I don’t know what I’m doing wrong to deserve such bad luck! She’s not exactly been worked hard!

I want to cry :(
 
Abi90 said:
Baby Rosie has been going so well. Then 2 weeks ago she started throwing her head a lot so I suspected she was sore so she had the physio. She was sore. She had 3 days off then lunged and seemed much happier. Get on her and the head tossing has gone but now she won’t go forwards in trot and refusing to canter.

Book saddle fitter for next available slot in 2 weeks and call the vet, in case it’s teeth. It’s not teeth. She trots up sound but is subtly lame on her left hind when flexed. She has a slightly sore back.

The vet thinks kissing spine, so she’s going for x rays on Monday.

I don’t know what I’m doing wrong to deserve such bad luck! She’s not exactly been worked hard!

I want to cry :(
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I'm sorry to hear that! How old is she?
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I'm sorry to hear that! How old is she?
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Rising 5. Backed and ridden away last summer, turned away for a couple of months, brought back into work slowly in October (very slowly as I was broken) and not exactly been pushed since ��
 
if she is slightly lame on her left hind then she is not sound!

Is your vet doing a full work up or just xraying her back?

My horse also went lame at 4, he was 1/10 lame, front right, and back left! it was really hard to see but he wasn't right! started to refuse to go into canter, then pinned his ear back in trot, then started planting! before eventually starting to rear! was confusing as he was young, so everyone thought he was testing his boundaries! anyway long story short, he had hock spavin in his left hind! and a bone spur in the coffin joint on his front left!

He's now 8, and has been sound for 3 years! had had his hocks fused and is self trimming to assist with the front hoof issue!

He did have his back xrayed, but he did not have kissng spins!

so I suppose my message is say that you need to have a full work up, not just focus on the back, lots of things can cause tightness in the back! but doesn't mean thats where the problem starts!

Good luck
 
Hi Kezzabell. Sorry, I meant she trotted up sound on the initial trot up but not after being flexed.

They are going to x-ray and if nothing found do a work up whilst she is there.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
A neighbour has a wobbler, which seems to be growing out of the condition. It is amazing, what a bit of old fashioned turning away for Dr Green can do.
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Can you clarify PaS? Is it C3/4 congenital wobbler? How old is it? I thought it was incurable.


OP, lameness on flexion doesn't sound like a classic symptom of a horse with kissing spines. Can you let us know what the x rays show? They can be secondary to a sacroiliac strain and/or PSD, which might show on flexion, so even if no-one vet finds kissing spines I hope they will also look at those areas. And if she does have them, they can be born with the propensity, so don't blame yourself.
 
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ycbm said:
Can you clarify PaS? Is it C3/4 congenital wobbler? How old is it? I thought it was incurable.


OP, lameness on flexion doesn't sound like a classic symptom of a horse with kissing spines. Can you let us know what the x rays show? They can be secondary to a sacroiliac strain and/or PSD, which might show on flexion, so even if no-one vet finds kissing spines I hope they will also look at those areas. And if she does have them, they can be born with the propensity, so don't blame yourself.
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I will do.

I’m a bit all over the place at the minute and not sure what to think. She’s been funny for 2 weeks and is normally a very forward straightforward horse so I know there was something but kissing spine hadn’t really crossed my mind as it’s come on so quick and she doesn’t really have a lot of symptoms but I’m not a vet.

I just want to get to the bottom of it :(

She’s insured but if they don’t find anything I will have to foot the bill I assume
 
ycbm said:
Can you clarify PaS? Is it C3/4 congenital wobbler? How old is it? I thought it was incurable.
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Sorry not really. It isn't mine. All I know is that the owner was considering pts but neighbour said it could come and live as a companion on her land. it is only young, possibly about 4/5 now, cobby build. I have watched it develop over the last couple of years. It used to only be able to sustain a vaguely balanced trot for a short time and frequently got left behind by its field mate, now it canters around, in short bursts but reasonably balanced. I have heard of others growing out of wobbler syndrome, too.
 
Anyone got any experience of the prognosis if it is KS? Vet said all the horror stories are from 10-15 years ago and it is really very treatable now
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Sorry not really. It isn't mine. All I know is that the owner was considering pts but neighbour said it could come and live as a companion on her land. it is only young, possibly about 4/5 now, cobby build. I have watched it develop over the last couple of years. It used to only be able to sustain a vaguely balanced trot for a short time and frequently got left behind by its field mate, now it canters around, in short bursts but reasonably balanced. I have heard of others growing out of wobbler syndrome, too.
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It's not by any means curable but my boy was diagnosed Wobbler as a 2yo, C3/4 congenital as you say; I got him from the field as a 7yo and he had feet going all over the place and was a very odd shape, but as he built muscle and was worked considerably and correctly you would never have known, he looked like a completely different horse also. Fine on a tight circle, backwards etc, only sign would be is you pulled his tail, hard, to the left whilst he walked. Unfortunately PTS with severe navicular last year.
 
i have two with kissing spine and both passed every flexion test and circle test under the sun!
it's only the xrays showed it up. I did have one that had a slight lameness in a hind leg but that turned out to be sacroiliac.

I had both treated with injections and physio for the ks. Both came back ridden - one with a very reduced workload and constant need for osteos/very high maintenance - the other (touch wood) is happily eventing in full work. It really depends what the xrays show. the first horse has a lot touching, the second only two.

Both neededconstant proper work and could never be allowed to lose topline/ go on long holidays from work.
 
I don’t know how to feel. I bought this horse after having lots of problems with previous horses. Finally felt like I was getting somewhere and BAM now this. I also bought her as she was so chilled out and easy to ride after a week off, which was essential as I get sent on courses and way with work a lot. Not sure how I will manage that now. I reckon I’ve lost nearly £8,000 on horses over the last 2.5 years. All were 5 stage vetted, and I don’t ride enough to have pushed them into being broken.

I didn’t ride for over half of last year due to vet issues, looks like this year is going to be the same again. Obviously that’s a bit woe is me, but I can only afford one horse

ETA - previous horse didn’t have anything major, just a series of minor things that kept him off work (tooth out, sarcoid removed etc). I had an accident on him and completely lost my confidence in him as had only really been able to ride him a sum of 10 times since I had bought him. He’s now in a new home and happy.
 
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Try to relax a bit. Yes it’s good to pick up on this stuff and get to the bottom of it, but you seem to already have put yourself into worst case scenario (I get it believe me!). I was convinced my horse has KS but on X-ray his back looked beautiful. Yes he had his share of other issues but that wasn’t one of them. Bad saddle fit can cause the same things. Once I had sorted my pony’s other issues (sacroiliac strain, ulcers, hayfever headaches, muscle condition) I still wasn’t happy with him, he was still refusing to canter unless like a camel and his trot was hollow and awful. I was sure it wasn’t Saddle as I’d had it fitted every year by a great fitter. But I got desperate so changed it anyway (to a flexible tree one that I fitted myself) and whammo! Perfect horse, liftedhis back, started moving forwards softly, it was literally instantaneous. I was so mad at myself for not trying a different Saddle sooner. The other thing that hollows him and grinds him to a halt is me blocking with my left leg, when I get tight in my hip and don’t open the knee and thigh away.

So the moral is, yes get all this stuff checked as it could be s serious issue, but it also could be referred pain from the saddle or a strain, so wait for a diagnosis rather than make one up! (I have made up loads, some right but the kissing spine was wrong!). My horse is going the best he has ever gone and makes me smile everybody time I sit on him, so the 2 years of investigations were so worth it! Will keep my fingers crossed for you.
 
BBP thank you. Tbh I wasn’t even considering kissing spine until the vet pretty much said it couldn’t possibly be anything else?
 
Abi90 said:
BBP thank you. Tbh I wasn’t even considering kissing spine until the vet pretty much said it couldn’t possibly be anything else?
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Well I hope he is proved wrong, there are many things that could be causing this from a slight change in the hock to something muscular that was made worse by the single physio treatment, many horses get worse following treatment which is why the vet needs to agree to treatment in the first place and why the physio should come back within a week or two to see how they have responded to the treatment, sometimes the second treatment is all that is required to finish what the first one started although it can mean they need to be referred back to the vet at that point, don't be too despondent your vet sounds as if he may be a bit of a doom and gloom person, stay positive!!
 
Thanks Be Positive. I’m doing my best. Ultimately I don’t know it definitely is until they x Ray, and if they x rays are fine then at least I know it isn’t!
 
I had a horse that sounded really similar, his was his saddle, despite being fit by a saddler, say no more :( he ended up really sore in his loin area. The physio who was also a vet found the problem quickly. The fact she was a vet ruled out other things too and I had total confidence in her, It took 6 weeks of no riding, pole work and physio exercises to get him back to normal again, then a nightmare search to find a saddle that fit. Good Luck with the xrays, got everything crossed for you.
 
As I suspected. It’s not kissing spine. Her back is beautiful. 2 week Bute trial and if it doesn’t help then scope for ulcers. She trotted up sound today
 
Abi90 said:
As I suspected. It’s not kissing spine. Her back is beautiful. 2 week Bute trial and if it doesn’t help then scope for ulcers. She trotted up sound today
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Vet proved wrong then!! it may be something that resolves quickly with a few quiet weeks and the bute, this time of year is not great for causing the odd minor niggle to look worse than it would in the summer when they are more relaxed with the sun on them rather than struggling through mud every day.
 
Abi90 said:
As I suspected. It’s not kissing spine. Her back is beautiful. 2 week Bute trial and if it doesn’t help then scope for ulcers. She trotted up sound today
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I'd be thinking of changing your vet. You said he was sure it was kissing spines and now he's got you giving bute to a horse with suspected ulcers. Bute is bad news for ulcers and in horses suspected of having them it is often given with anti-ulcer medication as a precaution. In your case that would just confuse everything.

If you don't find out by scoping first, you aren't going to know, if she later is shown to have ulcers, whether it was ulcers all along or whether bute caused the ulcers or made slight ones worse.


Good news that it's not kissing spines :)
 
Glad it’s not kissing spine. I was holding off telling you my horror story which ended with my horse being pts 7 years ago!

Hope the Bute and rest helps!
 
My instinct says she’s just young and a bit weak and needs some time off then carry on. I’m a bit annoyed that I’ve spent all weekend worrying about kissing spine when I didn’t think it was that in the first place
 
Good news :) I did think it was a huge jump from sore back to “it mist be kissing spines”.!

I’d be looking at the saddle fit as a matter of urgency. It sounds quite likely to be something as easily fixed as that. You may also need another bodywork treatment, even if it is that and you sort it.
 
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