Possible rig??

V1NN

V1NN

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Can anyone tell me more about rig horses, share their experiences please.

I bought a foal last yr when he was 3months old i bought him unseen as he was in whales and i am in scotland, i got him delivered to me in november last yr already gelded at his first home, i know it was a risk but i have ended up with in my opinion a fantastic horse.

He is extremely docile and easy to handle he is like handling an old horse. The only problem i have with him that has just cropped up is a couple of weeks ago one of the liverys at the yard where i keep him says she seen him mount and actually penetrate the old mare in the field who was in season at the time.
I have had the vet out and she took a blood test then gave him an injection to stimulate his hormones and then an hr later she took more blood and she will now test for raised testosterone levels this was last thursday and i am anxiously awaiting the results, i dont want him to go through an operation neither can i really afford it straight away if it was nessasery. My vet says a rig horse is capable of reproducing although all the info i can find on net states that this is not possible any ideas?

I have spoken to the vet who performed the gelding and he says he cant remember that there had been a problem, could it have gone undetected?
I have also spoken to his breeder and she also says there was no prblem or she wouldnt have sent him to me as a rig.

If it the tests come back positive does anyone have any idea thesurgery would cost?
and if it is really possible for a rig to reproduce?
i guess i would have to have all 4 mares at the yard scanned to see if they were in foal- then what would i do?
i am getting myself in an awfull worry any advice greatly appreciated
I personally dont believe that he is a rig he is 14months old and totally fantastic in every way never harrasses other horses in field that i have noticed
Thank you. Sarah .
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if when he was gelded one testicle had not decended then yes he could still reproduce

if they were both down, and both were removed he could be a "false rig" which is all the behaviour with none of the balls!
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Id maybe keep him separate to the mares to be safe rather than sorry!

if the bloods come back high and the vet who gelded him are adamant they took both, then it could be adrenal glands or pituitary gland problems which might be needed checking....... but this is unliekly!

he might just be a playful young male who is doing it in the way young boys know best!
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Thanks, i think it could just be that he is young and being a 'lad' i hope so
Yes the poor boy has been isolated into a field with just an objectionable little sec B gelding who i would believe it if they said he was a rig.
I have read (dont know if its right?) that if they just have an undesended testicle that something to do with body temperature the sperm is not valid and there would also not be a high enough sperm count anyway. thanks again
 
well the reason testicles hang outside the body in horses is that (as you say) body temp is too high for the sperm to be "viable" as the cooler, the more viable (until you get to freezing obv) just as a random trivia point, this is why elephant testicles are internal!
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its cooler inside than their natural outside temperature!
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However, less viable does not mean a couple of sperm will still not work! so there is a risk still! (sorry)

On a point, if you have to have an op, liverpool at leahurst do a session in the summer (i think its summeR) where they go through loads of horses who are cryptorchid to remove the testicle that is still there (and is cheaper as its for teaching in the hospital!)
 
Ok thanks Lucy
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i'm up in scotland so think he would have to go to edinburgh (believe they do teaching here wichwould make it cheaper) or aberdeen which is closer i dont have my own transport but i believe my insurance will not cover this sort of op

if the mares did happen to be in foal i guess i could be in legal trouble with the owners of the mares
 
I take it he had the HCG stimulation test because the initial blood test (rig test) showed extreme levels of testosterone?

In an ideal world it would be much better if all colts were castrated when the are older than the average age than most of them are done, because in many cases they are often too young and have not finished developing physically in side, really we have them done is to make our lives easier and to prevent un wanted births. The problem with castrating them later is they can retain their sexual behaviour.

There are more rigs and false rigs around than people think, many are mis understood and passed on as problem horses, very much like mares with with a hormone imbalance etc.

They can actually be castrated at any age but you will find they will do them between six and 2 years of age but sometimes this time span is not enough, if you have no proof that that the horse was castrated other than word of mouth then its your job to get to the bottom of it to be honest.
Usually race horses are done 2 years and onwards so the chances of them having retaining a tactical is far less.

Horses that are castrated too early (as in too early for that particular horse) will retain tissue which can produce nearly the same level as a crypt orchid and show the same behaviour.

If the results show that the horse has retained one, then it depends where it is as to what type of surgery and costs are envoloved, either way if it has not dropped it will have to be on an operating table.

In my case (well Mr M's) my vet said it was pointless because he has tissue left over which could be anywhere, too much digging around would have to be done and the surgery is like a complicated colic surgery and would be high risk operation. Basically like it or lump it, now he's on HRT which is like a chemical castration. Due to his level supplements (was told this by the vet) would not make a blind bit of difference, but I'm trying a herbal tincture to see if that helps.

Below is info taken from the web, when I was doing some re-search on it all.

If you have any more questions (I tried to keep it short lol) then feel free to PM me.

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Unless a vet explores the area surgically, it is extremely difficult to feel accurately the position of the misplaced testicle. Most colts do not take too kindly to being groped and diagnostic aids such as ultrasound can yield confusing results.


The surgery (called a cryptorchidectomy) required to remove a retained testicle will depend on where that testicle is located. Various techniques are used depending on the location of the testicle and the surgeon's particular preference and expertise. It is desirable to avoid a full abdominal exploration, as the risk of complications is higher and the recovery period longer.


Laparoscopic surgery, which involves a keyhole approach, may now be a better possibility for rigs that have the missing testicle located in the abdomen. In some cases, it can be performed on the standing, sedated animal, with the advantage of much smaller wounds and a faster recovery, but it requires appropriate equipment and a capable surgeon.


If the missing testicle can be seen with a laparoscope it can save a lot of the time that is sometimes spent searching the abdomen — meaning less stress for both horse and vet.
 
Hi thanks that was really usefull information
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He had that test because the vet said that due to him being under 3yrs of age the normal blood test does not give an accurate testosterone result.
I have phoned the vet who actually performed the castration he has records that he was castrated but he just cant actually remember doing this particular horse (due to i guess gelding loads of other horses and because he gelded a few the same day at the same stud.) but he says had he recognised a problem he would have put it in the horses notes, he is going to speak to the breeder although i already have and she specifically remembers being given the 2 balls to hold lol! the vet who performed the gelding said if anything at all sometimes in cryptorchid horses where the testical is retained the epidimius? or something is actually where the testical should be and may look like a small testical and that possibly could have been removed instead although he does not think that is the case he says its pretty hard to 'proud cut' a horse as the testicals are pretty well contained but it can happen.
so i am hoping he is right and that he is not a rig but will just have to wait for the results hoping to get them thursday, does anyone know if these tests are reliable? my vet assures me they are but i have heard people having two completely different results from the same horse.

i love my horse to pieces and if the results show he is cryptorchid i will do whatever i have to, to help him- selling him is not an option.

i am a bit confused by the term 'false rig'
is this just used to describe stallion behaviour in full geldings or do they also have some degree of tissue left?

To Kenzo, do you have to keep your horse seperate from mares?

thanks very much guys x
 
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In an ideal world it would be much better if all colts were castrated when the are older than the average age than most of them are done, because in many cases they are often too young and have not finished developing physically in side, really we have them done is to make our lives easier and to prevent un wanted births. The problem with castrating them later is they can retain their sexual behaviour.



[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, and i had my sports horse gelded at 2 1/2 for this reason. he's not in the least laddish now.
he wasnt interested in the ladies though, although they rather liked the look of him
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Hi thanks guys this has been a lot of help, Thanks Kenzo for your pm found it really interesting. good to hear from some1 in a similar situation.
I had no idea that you could geld a horse to young glad i know now- i'v always bought mares before
Hoping to get results tomorrow fingers crossed they are negative, might have to move yards otherwise wot a nightmare!
Think if he was a false rig i will try that stuff for 'randy geldings' as described above lol
Thanks again Sarah
 
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