Potentially explosive, How important are bloodlines?

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Cruiseonamiro

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Quite a few top riders have been quoted as saying that bloodlines don't matter, it's the horse's ability etc. Most people tell me that just because my horse is well bred, that doesn't mean anything. My arguement is surely it does, because they inherit natural ability and rideability etc from their parents? They do learn through experience, but surely they are just like humans. If your Mum and Dad aren't good at sport but are very intelligent, chances are that you will not be very good at sprt either, even if you are brought up in a sporting environment, because ability is innate? Otherwise, why would we have such important breeding systems in the country?? Why is it people seem to disregard horses' bloodlines so much?
 
Is this regarding breeding horses or buying them as I kind of see them as two different things. I have bought horses with unknown breeding as I liked to judge on what is in front of me. However, I now have a KWPN mare and I have to say that the difference in having a horse beneath you with breeding and serious talent is amazing. It has change my view and though I would still look at a horse with unknown breeding I would be a lot more inclined to get something that I could trace its history with.

However, if I was to breed then there is no way I would breed to anything that I didn't have a history of. One day down the line I would like to breed Penny and a lot of thought will go into what stallion she will go to. Because although I would like to breed for something for me, I can't guarantee that I will always have it and also breeding the likes of Penny's bloodlines to some unknown plod that just happend to be kept a stallion would be a crime in my opinion.

If it has unknown breeding then yes you can get a seriously talented horse, however the chance of it being talented can be increased dramatically by breeding dam/sire lines that compliment each other.
 
At the risk of a further explosion, isn't this why we have such a problem in the UK with producing brilliant horses when people are either ignorant or just don't care about bloodlines?

Yes, I appreciate that 'brilliant' bloodlines do not guarantee a top class horse but surely they help??
 
You only have to look at the success of the German and Dutch equine teams to see how important breeding CAN be.

In the UK for many years our showjumpers were indiscriminantly bred and I remember hearing a top SJ saying a good showjumper was a freak of nature and not down to breeding.

Good training is vitally important, but athletic ability and a good brain are inherited traits.
 
Lol - explosions ahoy!
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I agree with you scotsmare. You increase your chances of breeding a superstar by using certain bloodlines but IMO superstar + superstar does not always equal total superstar. Same as random + random does not always produce somthing for the glue factory.
Breeding is a lottery sometines so why wouldn't you increase your chances with some known lines. It is just no guarantee.
 
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Kate260881 - how do you know that the horse you have (KWPN) is fantastic due to her bloodlines - she could be an exceptional individual?

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Very true, there is no guarantee. But the talent in her bloodlines 'probably' has something to do with it.
 
Im talking buying horses. If you were breeding your own, then you control everything, right from the foals very first day, as well as the bloodlines. My ISH horse is your old school ish on one side - irish draft x tb, and then by amiro M on the other. As a result, he is laid back almost all of the time, but can be very quirky due to his exceptionally sharp brain. He is a very careful showjumper, and, what's more, the spit of cruising. It's possibly that his ability is just down to random chance but as he is so much like his grandsire (dam's side, may i add) then surely this shows how much horses stamp their offspring. It is down to the genes they inherit, as in human babies... and their surroundings do not change genes.
 
quite a few riders don't care what they drink as long as it is alcoholic!! Many riders are not breeders or owners. their job is to get the best out of a horse to make a living. saying that, there are a lot of riders, especially the younger ones who do understand that good bloodlines do narrow the odds of getting a good horse.

A good example to see if good bloolines count is to look at the results for the bigger shows where they show the breeding and you will see the name of a good sire appear several times. Is this luck?
 
Bloodlines are everything to professionals, its a bit like you wouldnt train a hannoverian to go racing, pro's wont look at anything young unless its got the right breeding.. In eventing you probably get more random breeding as you are looking for an all round athelete, showjumping and dressage no.
 
i have contradicting thoughts on this matter, i love breeding horses and if i had 10 broodmares i would have so much fun going out and chosing 10 stallions to use with them, and i know that i would use world class renowned stallions on all of them, after all we all dream of breeding a super star. however if i was going out looking to buy a horse to jump which is already out there jumping the breeding of the horse would go out the window, id be looking at the ability it shows. theres no point buying a horse with jaw dropping breeding papers if it wont get over the first fence. ive purchased a horse by jus de pomme out of an international mare before that had an amazing loose jump and a sweet nature but wouldnt jump anything with you on it, we even sent it off to a pro and they couldnt do anything with it either. so my summary of the subject is id always breed using top stallions, but i also know what the people mean when they say breeding doesnt mean anything cos sometimes it doesnt. as someone else mentioned i think the way you raise and train a young horse has as much to do with it as breeding.
 
in regards to surroundings, i do think they play a big part. i.e arabs for example were mostly alot smaller-depending on what the land was like they were living on than they are nowadays.

Bloodlines imo are very important, it gives a gauge to go by.

cheers nikki
 
In today's breeding it seems to be yes. Although in the past when little or no thought went into breeding showjumpers we in the UK used to do quite well!!!
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How many of those famous horses from the 60s, 70s and 80s had good or even known bloodlines?????

In racing you can breed the best to the best and still get cr@p.
Sadlers Wells probably the best racing TB of his time had 4 full siblings, none of them were any good, nor did any of them have his talent as a sire.

Desert Orchid, out of a unrideable failed point to point mare/hunter = pure brilliance
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Breeding horses is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get
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The top riders that are quoted as saying bloodlines dont matter - well in dressage and SJ you will find they are all pretty much mounted on horses purpose bred for the job. Do fair enough they didnt set out to buy a horse by X but because horses by X invariably have the talent for the job, thats what they end up with.
The numbers of top level horses competing in the main Olympic disciplines with unknown or very poor pedigrees are few and far between. Eventing is a bit of an exception, because the Brits and Irish (especially the Brits) have been a bit lackidasical about recording bloodlines and gathering hard progency data, it has been difficult to say with certainty which bloodlines were best in the eventing world and therefore less importance was placed on bloodlines. Now that the Europeans are also targeting the eventing market, thats going to change too. Of course there will still be OTT TBs going into eventing, but I am sure breeding will start to have a bigger impact in choosing young eventers in time
 
i think the simple answer is that if you are looking at a produced competition horse that can do the job, bloodlines don't matter. What the horse can do that is standing in front of you matters, not what his grandsire did or didn't do.

If you want to breed a horse they do matter, because then it is less of a gamble.
 
I believe certain aspects of ability are easier to pass on then others. From what I understand, jumping ability is easier to pass on then a good trot for example. So my understanding is it is harder to breed a dressage horse then a jumping one.

However, I once heard/read someone say, there are no mistakes when it comes to jumping. ie the breeding is there somewhere down the line.

I think breeding matters, if you consistently pick performance horses; the gene pool is smaller. Surely that means you have more chance of producing a winner.
 
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and then by amiro M on the other. As a result, he is laid back almost all of the time, but can be very quirky due to his exceptionally sharp brain. He is a very careful showjumper,

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My Amiro M mare is just like this. I haven't ever found a picture of Amiro M....? Does he really exist?
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I believe certain aspects of ability are easier to pass on then others. From what I understand, jumping ability is easier to pass on then a good trot for example. So my understanding is it is harder to breed a dressage horse then a jumping one.

However, I once heard/read someone say, there are no mistakes when it comes to jumping. ie the breeding is there somewhere down the line.

I think breeding matters, if you consistently pick performance horses; the gene pool is smaller. Surely that means you have more chance of producing a winner.

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I will quote Ken here, passage from an earlier thread "dressage v Jumping bloodlines"

Never underestimate the role of jumping genes in the background of a dressage horse. From way beack when, I was always told that you need to have jumping in there to maintain the quality canter. I understand that if you had purely dressage lines, the canter (quite important) is lost.

I can always remember looking through the 2003 Bernard Eylers book of German stallions, and commenting that Ramiro Z appeared as the dam sire of about 20% of all the (then) top dressage stallions.

One of the problems with dressage breeding right now, is that perhaps newer breeders are forgetting this point and so are stacking up the big names in order to remain commercial. Understandable, but if it's at the expense of one of the gaits, perhaps not a good idea.

An "outcross" may be the way ahead for a number of breeders, and there are one or two stallions out there with Olympic dressage potential who are from pure jumping blood, who should be considered.

Which I understand to mean that you need the jumping lines for the paces.

One thing I don't agree with however is constantly using the same lines, this will just make the gene pool smaller, is not this the reason why the Eurpoeans keep adding a good TB stallion along the way?
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I will quote Ken here, passage from an earlier thread "dressage v Jumping bloodlines"

Never underestimate the role of jumping genes in the background of a dressage horse. From way beack when, I was always told that you need to have jumping in there to maintain the quality canter. I understand that if you had purely dressage lines, the canter (quite important) is lost.


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I'd go along with that. I have a jumping bred horse (by Lombardo - Guidam de Revel) out of an Errigal Flight (King of Diamonds) mare and is canter is incredible. SO naturally uphil! And I've got a 6 week old filly by JW's Randi in the field - it's canter is absolutely exceptional even at this young age - she BOUNDS everywhere!

Yes, you can get a very good horse with nothing 'exceptional' in its bloodlines - I had an ex-hurdler years ago whose breeding wasn't even very special in jump racing terms. Yet he became one of the very top showjumpers in Australia of his time and was sold to Europe for big money! He was a freak of nature!! But I sure as hell would rather START with something whose bloodlines suggested he WOULD be up to the job - rather than take pot luck (I just couldn't afford one!
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I think a good example is this;
I've got a Grade A who has the most unorthodox jump but he will bust a gut to get you to a fence on the correct stride, will turn himself inside out to avoid touching a pole and has been consistent and succesful to a reasonable level all his life. However, he is nothing to look at and of fairly unknown breeding. I reckon if this same horse was ALSO well bred and from quality stock then he would have been a real superstar.
 
I look at this subject from two differing and very contradictory opinions. That of a rider and that of a breeder.

Rider:- I was recently in Belgium looking for a new competition horse. I tried several 6 to 9 year olds all of whom were professionally produced, competing at 1.30m+ and with the potential to go much higher. I have to say the breeding of these horses was the last thing on my mind. I looked briefly at their books but was far more intersted in the ability they showed, their results, temperament, rideability and most importantly whether they suited me or not. The horse was the important thing not its genetic makeup.

Breeder- Bloodlines are vitally important. In order to maximise the chances of breeding a quality horse, with the potential to do well and be a highly saleable product, then the use of high class stallions and mares is a must.

Polar opposite views that even confuse me at times! What I am trying to say is this. If I am buying a produced, proven competition horse then the animal will speak for itself and the breeding comes way down the line. But if I am looking to breed or buy a youngster then the bloodlines are at the top of the list.
 
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I look at this subject from two differing and very contradictory opinions. That of a rider and that of a breeder.

Rider:- I was recently in Belgium looking for a new competition horse. I tried several 6 to 9 year olds all of whom were professionally produced, competing at 1.30m+ and with the potential to go much higher. I have to say the breeding of these horses was the last thing on my mind. I looked briefly at their books but was far more intersted in the ability they showed, their results, temperament, rideability and most importantly whether they suited me or not. The horse was the important thing not its genetic makeup.

Breeder- Bloodlines are vitally important. In order to maximise the chances of breeding a quality horse, with the potential to do well and be a highly saleable product, then the use of high class stallions and mares is a must.

Polar opposite views that even confuse me at times! What I am trying to say is this. If I am buying a produced, proven competition horse then the animal will speak for itself and the breeding comes way down the line. But if I am looking to breed or buy a youngster then the bloodlines are at the top of the list.

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Well said DAHH, that is exactly my sentiments.

As a rider I look for one thing, suitability, proven performance record, soundness, ability to go further, the only time I would look at the passport is for the vaccination and where it has competed in the past (especially if it is a gelding)

and as a breeder I strive to produce or improve on the above, by using bloodlines.
 
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I look at this subject from two differing and very contradictory opinions. That of a rider and that of a breeder.

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They might seem different but the result is actually the same because:

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Rider:- I was recently in Belgium looking for a new competition horse. I tried several 6 to 9 year olds all of whom were professionally produced, competing at 1.30m+ and with the potential to go much higher. I have to say the breeding of these horses was the last thing on my mind. I looked briefly at their books but was far more intersted in the ability they showed, their results, temperament, rideability and most importantly whether they suited me or not. The horse was the important thing not its genetic makeup..

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If you were looking for a jumping horse in Belgium you presumably went there becuase Belgium is known for breeding good jumers -- and not just those sired by Darco -- so that cannot have been purely accidental. Also I would imagine that you would have been viewing horses already (to at least some degree) pre-selected for you by an agent or dealer and I am abolutely sure that they would have assessed the jumping potential and competition temperament/rideability bred in the pedigree as well the quality of the jump before chosing to show you any particular horse. Also a cursory glance at the sire and dam might not have revealed a great deal but I am pretty sure that if you had looked more at the 2nd or 3rd generation of the horse you viewed the same few names, especially Darco and the de Lauzelle stallions, would have turned up in a hogh proportion of them.

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Breeder- Bloodlines are vitally important. In order to maximise the chances of breeding a quality horse, with the potential to do well and be a highly saleable product, then the use of high class stallions and mares is a must.

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And of course as a breeder you are producing an animal at the top of the market that you will most likely sell to owners who have full knowledge of the bloodlines who will then put their horses with a professional rider to produce, so again pre-selection has actually taken place as far as the riders are concerned.

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Polar opposite views that even confuse me at times! What I am trying to say is this. If I am buying a produced, proven competition horse then the animal will speak for itself and the breeding comes way down the line. But if I am looking to breed or buy a youngster then the bloodlines are at the top of the list.

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But in the modern world, where professional owners, trainers and riders cannot waste time or money on training horses that are not going to make the grade, selection based on pedigre is the first vital step in the selection procedure and the proven competition horse will almost certain have a top class pedigree becuase of this anyway.

So no actual confusion or contardiction there after all :-)
 
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If you were looking for a jumping horse in Belgium you presumably went there becuase Belgium is known for breeding good jumers -- and not just those sired by Darco -- so that cannot have been purely accidental. Also I would imagine that you would have been viewing horses already (to at least some degree) pre-selected for you by an agent or dealer and I am abolutely sure that they would have assessed the jumping potential and competition temperament/rideability bred in the pedigree as well the quality of the jump before chosing to show you any particular horse. Also a cursory glance at the sire and dam might not have revealed a great deal but I am pretty sure that if you had looked more at the 2nd or 3rd generation of the horse you viewed the same few names, especially Darco and the de Lauzelle stallions, would have turned up in a hogh proportion of them.


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Over the years I have also tried horses in France, Germany, Switzerland and England. To be honest I don't care where they come from I just want a horse that fulfills my criteria.

I am sure that I would have found Darco or the like but I have no idea if they were there and that is exactly my point. When trying a proven horse the bloodlines are not important.

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And of course as a breeder you are producing an animal at the top of the market that you will most likely sell to owners who have full knowledge of the bloodlines who will then put their horses with a professional rider to produce, so again pre-selection has actually taken place as far as the riders are concerned.

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I don't quite see your point here. I already stated that when breeding or purchasing a youngster the bloodline is vital.
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But in the modern world, where professional owners, trainers and riders cannot waste time or money on training horses that are not going to make the grade, selection based on pedigre is the first vital step in the selection procedure and the proven competition horse will almost certain have a top class pedigree becuase of this anyway.

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Again I think you have confused the two distinct areas. That of purchasing a proven or semi-proven competition horse and that of breeding or purchasing a youngster. In my opinion the horses I was looking at had already to a certain extent proven themselves. Therefore the track record and ability they showed was the important factor not the bloodline.
As I have already stated if I was looking of an unproven horse, bloodlines are at the top of the list.

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So no actual confusion or contardiction there after all :-)

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Thank you for attempting to clarify my thoughts for me!
 
I think what Ciss is trying to say is you went looking for a SJ, therefore you were shown horses that were breed for SJ'g as opposed to dressage horses. My farrier for instance went to Germany with the purpose of finding a dressage horse, therefore the only horses he was shown were those bred for dressage. Does that make sense?

So what Ciss is saying is correct the horses blood lines are important. It is irrelvant that you did not care how the horse was bred, as the stud did care. I have heard more then one rider state they did not care what or how the horse was bred, yet they only go to sources that they know will show them horses that can perform at the ability they are looking for. If they are using an agent then they would have given them the criteria & they would have narrowed it down. Like my farrier said he wanted nothing over 16hh, had to be a gelding 5/6yrs who could perform certain movements. His agent did the rest, but you can bet that 98% at least were bred for dressage rather then showjumping.
 
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Again I think you have confused the two distinct areas.

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No I have not. What I am saying is that although the breeding of the *established horses* you were looking at was not a concern to you, it certainly would have been to the person who started off these now established horses as novices. If that was not the case, why do we bother breeding from horses with proven successful close relatives and ancestors at all?

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Thank you for attempting to clarify my thoughts for me!

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No just pointing out that wherever you pick up a horse in the system with the present structure of sport horse breeding and competition it is extremely unlikely that someone has not paid great care in analysing its pedigree as an indicator of its future likely success.

IOW, whilst it may not matter to you when you buy an established horse, it DID matter to others when he was not, and the fact that they were prepared to invest in him at that stage would have been due -- to a not inconsiderable degree and as you yourself have agreed when choosing breeding stock -- to his pedigree and the care that had gone into breeding him.
 
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I think what Ciss is trying to say is you went looking for a SJ, therefore you were shown horses that were breed for SJ'g as opposed to dressage horses. My farrier for instance went to Germany with the purpose of finding a dressage horse, therefore the only horses he was shown were those bred for dressage. Does that make sense?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes! However to a certain extent I disagree. One of my best show jumpers was in fact bred to race
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So what Ciss is saying is correct the horses blood lines are important.

[/ QUOTE ] It is not a matter of being correct or incorrect. It is a matter of personal opinion and experience.
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It is irrelvant that you did not care how the horse was bred

[/ QUOTE ] Of course it is relevant as I am the one paying for the horse!
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as the stud did care.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course the stud cared. This is exactly what I said in my first post. When breeding or purchasing youngstock bloodline is vital.

All I am adding is that once a horse has reached a certain level then its bloodline becomes far less important. For me what are important are the criteria I set out in my first post.
 
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