Pressure - release training...

[JFTDWS]

If you're training a horse to respond to pressure - e.g. using a pressure halter or a headcollar and you ask him to walk on / load etc, and the you apply light pressure, but rather than moving forward / onto trailer (etc) the horse resists, what do you do - release the pressure, increase the pressure or maintain low level pressure?

What would be the consequences for the horse's training if you were to do each option?

Forgive the random question, but I'd like to know whether I'm going mad or not.

 

[Jackson]

I wondered this too, asked, and was told that insead of having a constant pressure, you do lots of little tugs until the horse gives to it instead of just leaning against it? Could be very wrong, but it works for me

 

[Jesstickle]

No idea. I suppose my instinct is to just leave it the same and then when they step forward release it. But as Nitty follows me like a dog and BH just runs off if he doesn't want to do something I actually haven't ever put this in to practise!!

 

[LouS]

Maintain the same pressure, if they step back I step back with them and keep maintaining the same pressure until they step forward. I never get heavier on them.

 

[JFTDWS]

I wondered this too, asked, and was told that insead of having a constant pressure, you do lots of little tugs until the horse gives to it instead of just leaning against it? Could be very wrong, but it works for me

yes, I don't really mean the sort of horse that just leans back - which is what mine would do if they really didn't want to do as asked - more about those who react negatively - backing away, rearing, throwing heads - what would you do then? I know it varies massively on the situation, but talking basic theoretical training?

No idea. I suppose my instinct is to just leave it the same and then when they step forward release it.

What would happen / what would the horse think if you release while the horse is titting about, Jess - e.g. backing off or throwing its head?

 

[JFTDWS]

Maintain the same pressure, if they step back I step back with them and keep maintaining the same pressure until they step forward. I never get heavier on them.

thank you - that's what I mean in terms of situation. What do you think the horse would think if you release when it backs off?

 

[LouS]

You'd just be sending the horse mixed messages and he would learn that as long as he pulled back hard enough the pressure would release, not good.

At the same time I wouldn't increase pressure because horses need time to figure things out, its not fair to just pull harder and you'll likely get a huge explosion. When I'm loading tricky ones, I usually get a few explosions anyway when they start to get frusrated that I'm not releasing any pressure, but I just stay calm and go with them and they soon realize throwing their weight around isn't helping their situation, they then start to think rather than react. I've never had a horse I couldn't load in this way, even supposed impossible loaders, people just don't give them time and/or send them mixed messages. For example when people present a horse to a ramp, it stops so they turn it round and try again, once I've presented a horse to a ramp, it doesn't turn away from it again until its loaded. I don't know why some people think that giving the horse a run up will help, its not a broken down old car .

 

[Jesstickle]

I guess if it's rearing or flinging it's head about you might not have much choice about releasing the pressure and you'd just have to try again asap. If it's just backing off and you let go I suppose you're teaching it the exact opposite of what you want it to do. To be honest though, given that all horses naturally lean into pressure I reckon I'd want to couple it with a well understood voice command to begin with as I think they can get quite confused by the application of pressure. If that makes sense? At all? Probably not as I'm not good at explaining what I mean

 

[LouS]

I guess if it's rearing or flinging it's head about you might not have much choice about releasing the pressure and you'd just have to try again asap. If it's just backing off and you let go I suppose you're teaching it the exact opposite of what you want it to do. To be honest though, given that all horses naturally lean into pressure I reckon I'd want to couple it with a well understood voice command to begin with as I think they can get quite confused by the application of pressure. If that makes sense? At all? Probably not as I'm not good at explaining what I mean

Just to add to what I've said about loading, I would never try to load a horse until I was sure it understood the principle of the halter away from the lorry/trailer. Usually takes 10/15mins (depends on the horse and the work the owner has put into it, its surprising how many established horses have absolutely no idea) to introduce them to it and get them moving properly in all directions and understanding the pressure/release. Really irks me when people get a pressure halter, put it on and drag the poor thing straight to the box and except it to understand through sheer force.

 

[JFTDWS]

You'd just be sending the horse mixed messages and he would learn that as long as he pulled back hard enough the pressure would release, not good.

At the same time I wouldn't increase pressure because horses need time to figure things out, its not fair to just pull harder and you'll likely get a huge explosion...

If it's just backing off and you let go I suppose you're teaching it the exact opposite of what you want it to do.

To be honest though, given that all horses naturally lean into pressure I reckon I'd want to couple it with a well understood voice command to begin with as I think they can get quite confused by the application of pressure. If that makes sense? At all? Probably not as I'm not good at explaining what I mean

Both posts make perfect sense to me, thank you.

 

[dafthoss]

When yellow pony was a complete knobber about going in the trailer we wouldnt release untill he had moved forward. The only time it increased was when he reared at which point he had both me and dad hanging off his head, admittedly we wernt planning on increasing the pressure he did it him self and we both just kept hold . I always thought releasing before you got the reaction you wanted just taught them that if they ignore you for long enough you stop asking .

 

[JFTDWS]

I always thought releasing before you got the reaction you wanted just taught them that if they ignore you for long enough you stop asking .

Depends who you talk to

That is certainly my belief. I'm asking because I am being adamantly told otherwise, by someone who claims to know better

 

[dafthoss]

Really?!? I hate to think of the mess they could get in to with something strong willed with a brain.

 

[Puzzles]

I believe the principle is that a low level pressure is applied and then maintained until the horse moves 'into' the pressure (aka does what you want). Some methods recommend that the pressure is steadily increased until the horse responds in the desired way, which I think is a) sometimes difficult for the handler to apply on a practical level, and b) confuses the horse and does not teach him what you are actually aiming for as it unnecessarily punishes the horse and makes training more about the pressure than the release, making learning more arduous.. Some other methods increase the pressure when the horse does the opposite of what you want - i.e. walks backwards when you ask him to move forwards - to encourage the opposite (desired) behaviour to be elicited.
My preferred is the ^former^ as this does not punish or confuse the horse and gives him the time and opportunity for him to think, as I think that increasing the pressure until the horse responds is confusing.It also makes the horse more likely to panic and/or fight the pressure, making it more difficult for the horse to perform the desired behaviour as so makes the overall training process longer, more difficult and less effective for both horse and handler.

 

[JFTDWS]

.
My preferred is the ^former^ as this does not punish or confuse the horse and gives him the time and opportunity for him to think, as I think that increasing the pressure until the horse responds is confusing.It also makes the horse more likely to panic and/or fight the pressure, making it more difficult for the horse to perform the desired behaviour as so makes the overall training process longer, more difficult and less effective for both horse and handler.

Yes that's in keeping with my understanding...

And if you release the pressure when the horse reacts adversely?

 

[Puzzles]

Yes that's in keeping with my understanding...

And if you release the pressure when the horse reacts adversely?

Well I reckon that's always a risk but if the pressure applied is low level but consistent then an adverse effect isn't very likely. Once the horse has reacted badly then it easily ruins everything you've been working towards and puts you right back to step 1. Plus the horse won't forget it any time soon.
The only times I've had a horse react adversely is when I have put too much pressure on: not necessarily literally (but that too) but if I've been trying to teach them too quickly or asking them to do something they aren't ready for. To help avoid adverse reactions I try to make the 'right' thing as easy as possible for the horse as a preventative, i.e. if the situation is trying to load a difficult traveller then I wouldn't stand the horse at the bottom of the ramp and then just apply pressure using the leadrope/lunge rein.Instead it might be worth looking at the whole picture re. what the horse is being expected to do and begin training a few steps further back in the basics before approaching the difficult area itself.

 

[JFTDWS]

Ah puzzles, you speak the same language as me. Almost word for word at times. Thank you, I'm reasonably satisfied that I haven't lost the plot then

 

[Puzzles]

Ah puzzles, you speak the same language as me. Almost word for word at times. Thank you, I'm reasonably satisfied that I haven't lost the plot then

Oh that is a relief for me too! Particularly when I've been trying to explain my reasons for using pressure-release training for one of the horses who is very difficult to bring in from the field alone (he stops, whips round and bolts, not our of fear but because he is clever and has learned that it gets results): the first time, it took me an hour and a half. The second time, 45 minutes. It's been difficult because I'm not there for several weeks term-time and I'm obviously no professional, but hopefully am doing something right.