Prevalence and risk of orthopedic diagnoses in insured Swedish Warmblood horses

LEC

LEC

Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Joined
22 July 2005
Messages
11,698
Visit site
Just spotted this as discussed a lot on here... well joint issues in younger horses.


Some of it is no đź’© Sherlock.

1) dressage horses more prevalent. My theory would be that it's easier to over pressurise them and they do the same crap day in day out of circles. Jumpers harder to pressurise so much and they tend to have more variety. Also we are breeding them bigger and for bigger movement.

2) young horse testing - again it's a bit of a pressurised thing. Doesn't surprise me.

3) horses getting orthopaedic issues younger - my guess would be management over breeding as probably a far bigger change than what is being bred. Smaller fields, barn raising and list goes on.

4) competing vs non competing - just different orthopaedic issues.
 
They've got sire records in that data set so imagine they've identified if there's any hereditary link too.

Its interesting they say breeding has changed significantly in 40ish years from all rounder to discipline specific. Given what they are finding in the dressage bred horses I'm guessing breeding for that big movement isn't helping joints.
 
Nocturnal said:
La Guérinière cautioned against beginning dressage training until the horse is 6 or 7, so we’ve known for 300 years not to do this. Amazing that some people still get surprised pikachu face when their young dressage horses break down.
Click to expand...

I think this is way too simplistic, just think how many people has horses aged 5/6/7 who are either lame or have significant pain issues that prevent it from being ridden, and the people will say they have gone slowly and the horse has done practically nothing in the arena. Their are so many stories like that in livery yards everywhere, and plenty of similar posts on this forum too.
 
daffy44 said:
I think this is way too simplistic, just think how many people has horses aged 5/6/7 who are either lame or have significant pain issues that prevent it from being ridden, and the people will say they have gone slowly and the horse has done practically nothing in the arena. Their are so many stories like that in livery yards everywhere, and plenty of similar posts on this forum too.
Click to expand...
That is not evidence that it’s not harmful to do too much too young. Using that as an excuse to push young horses is part of the problem imo.
 
Nocturnal said:
That is not evidence that it’s not harmful to do too much too young. Using that as an excuse to push young horses is part of the problem imo.
Click to expand...
No, its not evidence, I agree, but it shows that its too simple to say that not training horses too young is the answer to soundness problems, its much more multi faceted than that.
 
Last edited:
Key peer-reviewed reviews & papers

  1. Logan AA — “Training Young Horses: The Science behind the Benefits” (literature review, 2021).
    Takeaway: evidence that appropriately managed early exercise (including starting training at ~2 yrs in some contexts) can improve musculoskeletal adaptation and is not necessarily associated with higher injury rates; cautions about analgesic masking in racing.
  2. Rogers CW — “Equine musculoskeletal development and performance” (review, 2020).
    Takeaway: detailed review of bone, tendon and cartilage development and how mechanical loading (exercise) during growth influences later performance and injury risk; addresses the 2-year-old training debate.
 
In my opinion and experience there are four basics that affect soundness.

1) Management: turnout, feeding etc, relevant all through the horses life.

2) Breeding: dont breed from the bonkers and the broken, and with competition specific breeding, dont use horses that have done nothing past the age of 5, and be surprised when issues develop as training progresses.

3) Work: Its not so much when you start to work a horse (within reason) but how, work can make or break the horse.

4) Luck: you can do everything right and just have bad luck with accidents and illness.
 
LEC said:
Key peer-reviewed reviews & papers

  1. Logan AA — “Training Young Horses: The Science behind the Benefits” (literature review, 2021).
    Takeaway: evidence that appropriately managed early exercise (including starting training at ~2 yrs in some contexts) can improve musculoskeletal adaptation and is not necessarily associated with higher injury rates; cautions about analgesic masking in racing.
  2. Rogers CW — “Equine musculoskeletal development and performance” (review, 2020).
    Takeaway: detailed review of bone, tendon and cartilage development and how mechanical loading (exercise) during growth influences later performance and injury risk; addresses the 2-year-old training debate.
Click to expand...

From what I understood at least one of those shows that horses do better in racing (which has very particular requirements, very different to horse sports), at relatively young ages, if their bodies are loaded earlier. It doesn't speak to horses that could be started much later and its effect on long term soundness.

We are breeding horses to move in a more elastic way, their legs are getting longer, their backs often shorter, and overall they're taller, over time. I can't see how that doesn't play into this. I've even seen knowledgable people debating that artificial insemination (was going to put AI but realised that's now confusing!) in sport horses, of course not allowed in racing, has led to poorer quality sperm succeeding. We have no idea the effects our selective breeding is having because, with grading at 3, we have absolutely no way to prioritise breeding for long term soundness in the system, and it's hard for individual breeders to find a way around that.
 
Last edited:
Well we have the Brosarp project still ongoing.... not seen any update for a while though.
 
LEC said:
Well we have the Brosarp project still ongoing.... not seen any update for a while though.
Click to expand...
breedingnews.com

The Brösarp project following three years of research - Breeding News for Sport Horses

By Adriana van Tilburg Graphics: HoofStep app In 2019, a high-profile pilot project was carried out in Sweden on Brösarp’s slopes with young, future competition horses in jumping. The group was followed for six months, and systems were tested to monitor their welfare. The purpose was to measure...
breedingnews.com

For anyone interested
 
I don't think its starting horses too young (within reason - I wince at some of the foal-like 2yo out racing) so much as what is done. Incremental loading with a slow steady start to ridden work does prime joints, muscles, ligaments etc to take weight. I often use an example of when I was in Ethiopia and 12yo girls were laughing at me because I couldn't carry their water canisters (full stop, let alone on my head). They start the girls out there with small canisters so by the time they are grown women all the appropriate muscular development is in place for them to carry ridiculous weights on their heads. If we slowly start to introduce young horses to be weight bearing then their bodies can adapt. That isn't to say groundwork shouldn't be done - that can most definitely help with developing the right muscles - but ultimately the back does need to get used to having weight on it if we are going to ride them.

Rushing past that slow and steady start though does seem to be the norm with a lot of the expensive horses bred to do a job. I was at a clinic at the weekend with a stunning mare who was being taken back to basics as a 6yo after she'd spent 2 years jumping 1m30 tracks and it had blown her brain. Thankfully it also hadn't blown her body so hopefully she'll be receptive to the remedial work her new owner is putting in - but they fully expected kissing spine when they got her because she was going around with her ears up the riders nose and a solid lump of muscle under her neck.

Far away from competition horses but I do think mine are much fitter and healthier out 24:7 having to work for their food. My semi track / strip grazing summer set-up means they get 3 acres to wander around without actually being able to eat all of it - so they have to move. I don't have the hacking to put enough non-schooling miles on their legs but I do have the acreage to force movement in return for food & water. I appreciate not everyone is that fortunate and I do notice the difference around Feb when they have to start coming in overnight.
 
Looks a bit too much of a sledgehammer of a paper to draw much from it to me. Interesting stats but from a very skewed sample with so few details it’s not of much help.
 
rara007 said:
Looks a bit too much of a sledgehammer of a paper to draw much from it to me. Interesting stats but from a very skewed sample with so few details it’s not of much help.
Click to expand...
why did you think that? I thought a population of 15,000 horses with breeding history and insurance records was a pretty good data set
 
Pretty much as you say! It’s 15k Swedish warmbloods insured by Agria. Unsure of the pre insurance vetting requirements in Sweden vs the UK but that’s a very strong selection bias immediately. The figures even though significant, are they…. Males are more likely to get diagnosis than mares (45% vs 49%?), but are mares as likely to present in the first place? And are they as likely to pursue through to diagnosis vs take a year out? Dresssge bred horses get more diagnosis than jumping bred, but again are they equally likely to present…?
Same with youngstock that were performance tested vs not, your 1/10th lame aiming at young horse classes mare is going to the vets, for your leisure horse have you even spotted its slight lameness.
Some dog insurance goes up when you spay the bitch. You’re more likely to then make a claim. That’s nothing to do with the now reduced health risks and 100% due to the types of owners that neuter dogs and make claims.
Really useful for the insurance company, but do I think chosing a jumping bred mare that’s not been performance tested will get a more likely sound horse, I’m unconvinced.
I have 3 insured (non Swedish) horses on referral vets ortho books, only 1 do the insurers know about.
 
Last edited:
rara007 said:
Some dog insurance goes up when you spay the bitch. You’re more likely to then make a claim. That’s nothing to do with the now reduced health risks and 100% due to the types of owners that neuter dogs and make claims.
Click to expand...
that's weird, I didn't know that. I didn't even realise you had to tell them and presumably the same with a male dog.
 
Nocturnal said:
La Guérinière cautioned against beginning dressage training until the horse is 6 or 7, so we’ve known for 300 years not to do this. Amazing that some people still get surprised pikachu face when their young dressage horses break down.
Click to expand...


Totally agree

Seen so many broken by aged 8 years

A horse is not mature til 10 years

The aim of dressage is to enable the horse to work. Sound into its twenties

So many breeders have bred for m0ney, without the greater indepth knowledge of conformation, pedigree and something that cannot be learned but is a gift

Years ago horse would start g p around 12 not flipping 7
 
I was speaking to my farrier about the rise in young, injured horses and we were saying there are just so many factors to it. A few that seemed to make most sense were:

- More people working young horses in an arena. We used to break them in and they'd hack for a year or two before entering an arena for strength, to see the world and help mental development. You'd teach all the basic cues out hacking and the key was always to go forward
- Horses not having proper breaks to rest. Many horse owners now have one or two horses that they ride all year round, rather then having them for a summer or winter job and turning them away for the 4/5 months each year.
- Uneducated fitness training. How many people actually walk their horses for at least six weeks before doing more?
- Less field time - it's underestimated how much field time helps horses build their bodies correctly and in a relaxed manner. Standing in stables for 20 hours a day, our for 3 and ridden for one isn't going to ever help a horse become strong.
- Breeding for movement as mentioned above

There will be so many more factors too that aren't negative - like updated diagnostics that means less goes undetected which is really positive for horses. This is mainly what I've viewed for the average person's horse, not so much elite horses either. That said, I have had friends who've done everything right and the horses break which is just darned bad luck.

Lots of the above are things that horse ownership in the modern world is unavoidable.. dangerous hacking due to roads etc, so much development so we're losing grazing land - it's made me think about if I'll buy more after I lose my two as there are such few places in my area where horses have access to a lot of turn out and good hacking.
 
Not science but an interesting, educated anecdotal take:

www.facebook.com

Annie Dillon

People often watch Gerpir move and say, “He looks so classical… but there’s no swing in his back.” And they’re right. He does move with balance, rhythm, lifted posture, engaged hindquarters, and even...
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top