Problem that has me stumped - accepting the lead

[3DE]

A bit of a background - I am quite an experienced dog owner (well lurcher owner) and currently foster 'difficult' dogs for our local rescue and dog warden. I do both agility and obedience training with my two older dogs.

So the problem - I have 2 lurcher puppies that are now 12 weeks old. They have worn collars since the day I got them and have accepted them no probs. I have trained them to walk to heel off lead which they do brilliantly, but now we have had all of our vaccinations and are about to enter the big bad world I need to get them lead trained.

I started with just attaching a lead to the pups and leaving it running along the floor, simply to get them used to having it there. I did this for a week or so and they accept this without any fuss. Then I moved on to taking up the lead - this is where the problems started.

As soon as they feel the tension on the collar they completely freak out - not just pulling but flipping, squealing, growling, barking, spinning, you name it. I didn't push it - I simply held onto the lead (long line) until they calmed down; which they did after a few minutes but at the end of the lead, with tension.

The next time I tried I attached the puppies together, figuring that then they would not see me on the other end as something 'bad' and simply wander around together - nope, they freaked as much as the time before.

I then tried doing the same with a puppy attached to my confident, calm, older dog. They both freaked at first but eventually calmed down and will follow with slack on the long line, if however the long line goes taut they freak again. I have been letting them out like this in the garden every time they go for a wee for about a fortnight now and still they are no calmer.

I use a 20 foot long line so they have room to move before it gets tight, but have also tried with a 12 foot line thinking that the shorter one would remind them of it presence (I'm not convinced that they don't forget they are on the long line at times), but they really don't like the 12 foot one...

As my dogs are lurcher and have a head smaller than the thickness of their necks I use a half check chain to prevent them ducking out of the collar. I use it loose enough so the check doesn't actually ever come into play but tight enough so that if they pull back and it goes up to their head it stops them ducking out of it.

I am very anti-harness so please don't suggest using one - I believe that harnesses have a purpose and that is to attach the dog to a sled to make it easier for the dog to pull. I also don't like to use control halters 1) because I don't want to use anything that will put discomfort on the pups (they react badly enough to a collar) and 2) because they are very thin skinned lurchers which risks rubbing and making their skin sore.

I have tried a halti and the reaction to this was even more extreme than to a collar.

I have had the pups since 5 weeks - they were rescued after being dumped - and the process has been ongoing for weeks now. I haven't tried to rush or push them at any point.

The pups are very eager to please and work for affection rather than treats or toys (they don't show any interest in either) and want to be with me - to the point they already know 'heel' offlead at 12 weeks. I don't want to destroy their confidence or their trust in me by pursuing something that isn't working, or trying something that will traumatise them more. Does anyone have any ideas???

croquembouche for anyone who got to the end!

You can even have a chocolate one if you prefer...

 

[CorvusCorax]

**burp**

Well my first reaction on reading the title was addressed in the third par - attaching a lead in the house.
It does seem to be the tension they are reacting to. Have you tried attaching a really, really thin, light line, even a piece of twine? When we are training the dogs will wear a very small, thin loop of material in the loop of the collar, just a hand-strap really.
Dog off lead at heel then a quick tug if need be. If their heel is good already then this might be an idea.
You could start off with that out and about and then gradually attach longer lengths of handle until you have a light lead. So starting short to long, rather than the other way around.

 

[3DE]

**burp**

Ha ha

Have you tried attaching a really, really thin, light line, even a piece of twine? When we are training the dogs will wear a very small, thin loop of material in the loop of the collar, just a hand-strap really.

I haven't yet but I will try tomorrow (they've done their stint today bless them) that's a good point!

Dog off lead at heel then a quick tug if need be. If their heel is good already then this might be an idea.

I know what you mean here but the problem seems to be as soon as I take up the lead in my hand. The pups can even be attached to the older dog and being calm but as soon as I take up the middle of the longling (still slack) they freak. I will try though...

It really has me stumped as their reaction is so extreme. They don't even seem to realise that if they stop pulling it is infinitely more comfortable (hence my reluctance to use pressure harnesses), they will calm down but with the lead taught. It's almost as if they give in rather than clicking that the lead being slack is nicer. And this isn't the way I want to train my dogs

Edit - and it's weird that both pups are the same.

They will also walk alongside my other two when the older dogs are onlead, yet they don't seem to learn from them. Maybe it is the stubbornly stupid saluki in them lol

 

[NeverSayNever]

bit of a challenge eh?!

If I were you I would do everything totally separately with the pups, and I wouldnt attach them together or anything like that. To me, they arent seeing the lead going on as 'work' but as 'restraint'. Another thing that strikes me is that you havent done any positive reinforcement - eg treats and games to distract or getting fed dinner with the lead on, you are just hoping they will 'accept' it. If they can walk at heel, what would happen if you take one pup on its own into the garden and do some lovely positive heelwork, using highly motivating treats. Then as the pup is working at heel, gently attach the lead. The lead should stay loose if if the pup is at heel, and if the pup is focused on you and distracted by the treat , it should go unnoticed. Hope this helps.

 

[3DE]

Another thing that strikes me is that you havent done any positive reinforcement - eg treats and games to distract or getting fed dinner with the lead on,

I do use positive reinforcement - just not treats or toys. I have lurchers that are not food or toy orientated. My dogs work purely for attention . Treating wont work with dogs that aren't food orientated.

Perhaps I should have added that at every step my dogs have been praised for even the slightest correct behaviour. I just find it odd that someone would assume that I wouldn't, I would assume that someone would...

You ideas are fine in theory if you have collie or a lab or the like but simply will not work for pointies

The positive heel work then attaching the lead - yes I've done that. Time and time again - the reason I have come on here asking for advice is that the reaction is so extreme when I clip the lead on and I am holding it that I am getting nowhere. I cannot stress how extreme the pups' reaction is Yes, I am trying to get the pups to 'accept' it - but you cannot praise a dog for doing something right if it is literally screaming and throwing itself on the floor.

It is this that I need help with, not the walking to heel that comes afterwards

Maybe I should video to show just how extreme the reaction is...

 

[CorvusCorax]

Have you tried the whole running backwards encouraging 'chase me' thing with the loose lead so they get the whole 'being with mum is fun' thing?
Sorry if that is an obvious question it is a weird one! Might ask the boys at the weekend if they've ever come across it. Would be interested in a vid, yep.

 

[CAYLA]

I have had this with a litter of feral lurchers, I used a squeaky toy with a light weight lead and pulled the toy around me as I dizzily turned in a circle and they would chase it to rag/catch it, in the mean time the lead became invisible to them they where more interested in the cuddly kill, I would then throw it ahead so they pulled towards the toy, another thing that got them pulling against the lead which is what I wanted when they had initially spent time fighting against it or screaming and pittling lying on their backs and biting the lead was allowing my adult dogs to hoon around loose around them, they where desperate to get to the end of the lead for this
Its much harder when you get them at this age and they have little experience of anything, msut say a few of them (I had 7) did respond well to treats as it sitting them in front and gently coaxing them with a treat, but as mentioned most where not treat orientated they where more teddy orientated. it took a few weeks to there with 5 of them and like yours 2 took alot more coaxing, but got there in the end.

 

[Brownmare]

I have a whippet who isn't treat or toy oriented so I feel your pain! However I did manage to get him motivated to one particular toy - a fluffy duck that "honks" instead of squeaking That noise really seems to get him going so what I did was get the duck out and honk it while throwing it from hand to hand either side of his head and to the other dog, then running away with it etc until he was really revved up and trying to get it then I praised him and put it away (within sight of him on a high shelf) After a few sessions like that just the sight of the toy revved him up and I could use it as a reward in its own right.

Another thing - you say praise works best for them so could you adjust the praise you are giving so you give them a rub on their neck (under the collar where it gets itchy ), then progress to holding the collar while you do this, then increase the amount of tension & handling of the collar as they get used to it. Once you can get them fixated on a toy you can then hold the collar while you throw the toy then release them to retrieve it and so on. I would agree with NSN about working them seperately too.

Good luck with them!

 

[SusieT]

To me you sound a bit 'my way or no way' with the no harnesses, no treats, no toys.
You may find you need to adust your methods as they are evidently not working.
I would begin by seeing if I could find a focus for them, be it cheese, a toy, ham, dog treats, whatever. Obviously walking on a lead is a necessary thing for them.
I would also strongly consider trying different harnesses and collars. I have seen plenty of lurchers in collars other than half check, e.g the ones with big thick ares then thin areas. Adusted correctly they should not slip out of them. And you never know it could be that they settle beautifully in harnesses, it is no different really to teaching them to walk on the lead to teach them to walk on harness. However, as it is both pups it doesn't sound like an 'individual' quirk but something that both have been exposed to at some point.
It is hard for a pup sometimes to learn that the collar is not going to choke them, particularly if it is a half check.
If you have no joy with trying different collars/harnesses I would be getting a professional dog trainer in as it is difficult for us to advise without seeing the dogs.

 

[3DE]

Have you tried the whole running backwards encouraging 'chase me' thing with the loose lead so they get the whole 'being with mum is fun' thing?

Yeah I've tried that but no joy - works fine off lead though

another thing that got them pulling against the lead which is what I wanted when they had initially spent time fighting against it or screaming and pittling lying on their backs and biting the lead was allowing my adult dogs to hoon around loose around them, they where desperate to get to the end of the lead for this

Mine seem to be worse with the 'big dogs' off lead - it almost encourages them to play up

I know what you mean about squeaky toys but my dogs are semi working dogs so I want to encourage them to do that only when working, not just for fun. I have one dog who is really high prey driven and squeaky toys made him even worse - he was soon chasing anything that moved. It's taken a long hard slog to focus him on working only at certain times and the rest of the time leaving. He'll now even stop mid chase when after the chickens if I shout leave

However I did manage to get him motivated to one particular toy - a fluffy duck that "honks" instead of squeaking

Oh that honking duck is our prize toy! We use if for retrieves with the big dogs. It has to be kept in the glove compartment of the car because when I used to keep it in the house, number 1 dog used to open cupboard doors and jump up book cases to steal it

We have a honking pig too - now we have a pig though that one has been binned (far too realistic a noise...)

Someone on another forum suggested something which I hadn;t thought and that was instead of doing the crazy lady follow me noises, simply to say nothing and follow pup around. How flaming sensibly simple! Going to try tomorrow

 

[NeverSayNever]

I do use positive reinforcement - just not treats or toys. I have lurchers that are not food or toy orientated. My dogs work purely for attention . Treating wont work with dogs that aren't food orientated.

Perhaps I should have added that at every step my dogs have been praised for even the slightest correct behaviour. I just find it odd that someone would assume that I wouldn't, I would assume that someone would...

You ideas are fine in theory if you have collie or a lab or the like but simply will not work for pointies

The positive heel work then attaching the lead - yes I've done that. Time and time again - the reason I have come on here asking for advice is that the reaction is so extreme when I clip the lead on and I am holding it that I am getting nowhere. I cannot stress how extreme the pups' reaction is Yes, I am trying to get the pups to 'accept' it - but you cannot praise a dog for doing something right if it is literally screaming and throwing itself on the floor.

It is this that I need help with, not the walking to heel that comes afterwards

Maybe I should video to show just how extreme the reaction is...

i was trying to help.

i didnt assume you arent using praise... you said yourself you are hoping they will 'accept' the lead and clearly whatever you ARE using as praise isnt perceived as so by them. Although you say what i have suggested wont work as your dogs arent labs or collies, id urge to re-assess your praise as clearly, your methods arent working right now, and I assumed by your thread title and the fact you said you were stumped, that you might be open to advice. Many lurchers, as you will obviously know, have some kind of collie in them anyway. However, even if they dont, there are ways an means of making a toy or treat valuable. Ive had many people come to me who say their dog isnt toy or treat motivated, and we always find a way through this, and shock horror, some of these dogs have been lurchers, and other breeds without a sniff or border collie or labrador At the moment your praise is obviously not working, so perhaps think about other things?

 

[3DE]

However, even if they dont, there are ways an means of making a toy or treat valuable. Ive had many people come to me who say their dog isnt toy or treat motivated... ... ...At the moment your praise is obviously not working, so perhaps think about other things?

I probably should add at this point that I have one high prey driven dog so am actually reluctant to use a toy as praise (they do tend to kill toys lol).

Treats - I've tried cheese, liver, sausages, chicken, ham, beef, pork ... As they are on a BARF diet there doesn't seem to be anything especially tasty compared to meaty bones Open to suggestions though

I know what you mean about my praise not working - they thing is though is that it does. They respond really well to verbal and touch praise normally. It just seems that in high stress they do not respond at all - and I can understand why. You can actually make a distressed dog worse by praising them when they are in that state - you are actually precipitating the probelm. Sometimes it is better to just ignore the behaviour (like with a nappy horse) and I have tried this too...

My problem is that my pups get stressed with pressure applied - for the reason above I don't want to reward and encourage this behaviour. I need a method of training that will reduce the stress for them.

I think I'm going to have a little play with them and put gentle pressure on the collar with my fingers are someone suggested earlier. Good excuse for a romp in front of the log burner

 

[NeverSayNever]

I probably should add at this point that I have one high prey driven dog so am actually reluctant to use a toy as praise (they do tend to kill toys lol).

Treats - I've tried cheese, liver, sausages, chicken, ham, beef, pork ... As they are on a BARF diet there doesn't seem to be anything especially tasty compared to meaty bones Open to suggestions though

I know what you mean about my praise not working - they thing is though is that it does. They respond really well to verbal and touch praise normally. It just seems that in high stress they do not respond at all - and I can understand why. You can actually make a distressed dog worse by praising them when they are in that state - you are actually precipitating the probelm. Sometimes it is better to just ignore the behaviour (like with a nappy horse) and I have tried this too...

My problem is that my pups get stressed with pressure applied - for the reason above I don't want to reward and encourage this behaviour. I need a method of training that will reduce the stress for them.

I think I'm going to have a little play with them and put gentle pressure on the collar with my fingers are someone suggested earlier. Good excuse for a romp in front of the log burner

no, you are quite right about praise making the problem worse if they stressed, as in verbal praise. But i mean by way of distraction, rather than as reinforcement, then obviously when they are reacting in a positive way, you can use the verbal praise. I can understand your concerns about the toys because of prey drive - you can however make a game with you playing tuggy still highly motivating and rewarding without there being a chase element. Another thing that springs to mind is the BARF.. as you say very little you offer will be as wonderful as the dinners they are already getting Have you tried cooking some liver/chicken with a good amount of garlic, so it really stinks? Another thing is if they are really hungry, that will help. It wont do them any harm to miss a meal so they are more inclined to be thinking of their tummies... and then you could try using your best BARF bits, wait til they are properly hungry and wanting fed and attach something light, like a short piece of baler twine or ribbon as they eat. If this goes well, then next time make it a bit longer... a bit heavier etc? Again, id stress to have each pup on its own so they focus on YOU and not the reactions of the others. Good luck

 

[SusieT]

Following a dog around silently is likely to get a worse reaction...

 

[3DE]

Have you tried cooking some liver/chicken with a good amount of garlic, so it really stinks?

I do actually do this for dog training/agility. I boil a whole liver with garlic and a beef stock cube, slice it into strips and then bake in the oven until hard. I like that the strips you can hold between your fingers so it's easier to treat on the run...

Thinking about it you could be right about the not giving food thing - I never thought about that as they are still on three meals a day so I doubt they are ever starving hungry... I suppose training just prior to food would work though

Following a dog around silently is likely to get a worse reaction...

Why?

Anyway...

Maybe too early to say but I think I may have licked it with the wimpier of the two pups. I have just had 5 mins of rough housing with my pulling occasionally on the collar (with no objections) followed by him following me (read chasing me) round the island in the kitchen - on lead!!!

Maybe it was the outside thing they were freaked about (even though it was only in the garden). In the house he seemed much more comfortable...

I do feel like such an idiot sometimes - you try all the tried and tested things but forget about the dumb little obvious ones. It just proves that no matter how experienced you are (please remember I am no newbie - I rehab difficult dogs) a fresh pair of eyes can always help

But thanks everyone for all the suggestions - a lot to take in, and take on board. I am feeling more positive now - only two laps of the kitchen island but bingo lead walking here we come

Oh and the video I promised isn't going to happen - my phone is dead and I've just realised I left my charger in the hotel I stayed in last week - grrr!!!!

Oh and for those who want to see the offending canines - here they are (a few weeks ago so much bigger now!)

Black/tan - Boyd - foxhound x grey
White (actually dilute red merle...) - Freddie - Saluki x grey
Black - Cooper - Saluki x lab
Liver - Enzo - Saluki x lab

 

[Bryndu]

Hi,
Strictly I am a not a dog expert but might have advice to help.
My working sheepdog had this problem as a puppy, perhaps not as scary as your puppies but a big issue all the same.
The cause of the problem in my boy's case was his collar. He had a skinny collar and when the lead was attached I believe the pressure concentrated too much on one area on his throat.
Solution: fatter collar, ordinary lead, end of problem.
Hope this helps.
Bryndu

 

[Brownmare]

Treats - I've tried cheese, liver, sausages, chicken, ham, beef, pork ... As they are on a BARF diet there doesn't seem to be anything especially tasty compared to meaty bones Open to suggestions though

Try Pepperami chopped in tiny pieces and (for extra yumminess) put in treat pouch and forget about it for a week until it goes a bit green And really stinky cheese like parmesan works well too

Glad you are making some progress