Problem with horsebox brakes

[Bangagin]

Sticky buns and a cup of tea to anyone who gets to the end of this saga!

To cut a very long story short (as the saga is still going on), my H reg Ford Iveco was due its MOT in January, and it failed on the brakes. Mechanic repaired a few bits and pieces, and then when he was taking it to the next MOT the brakes failed completely and so he turned round and came home and did some more work, replacing the master cylinder on the front brakes. Then this Monday it failed again on exactly the same problem with the brakes.

The mechanic is at a loss what to do, as he has spoken to several other mechanics and they would all have done exactly what he has done. The only other thing he can try now he feels is to replace the master cylinder on the rear brakes.

So three months on I have a lorry that still has not passed an MOT and a mechanic who does not know what more to do with it. I am still waiting for a breakdown of what he has done, but he told my son on the phone yesterday that he has spent 35.4 hours working on it so far, and has spent £240 on parts (which doesn't sound a lot so wondering if they have been bought second hand?).

He can't understand why it won't get up to the required braking power. He was wondering if it had anything to do with the weight of the lorry? I have removed a partition and the spare wheel and they are being stored - would that make a huge difference?

I am now worried I have a lorry that won't get through an MOT and is pretty much worthless. Has anyone ever had a similar problem please or can anyone give any advice?

 

[sychnant]

I had a B reg Cargo, and to get it through the plating I had to weight the back end. They are made to be driven loaded, and this is when the brakes work best. I used to stick 10 bales of shavings in the back, with both partitions and spare tyre.

The one time I used a mechanic to take it to the Test Centre for me (he was doing some work to it pre-test) he didn't weigh it down and it passed on everything except the brakes. He took it back the next day with some stuff in the back and it passed.

Hope that helps

 

[iconique]

Hope you get this sorted, and if I was you I'd be fuming 35 hours at even £30 per hour is over £1k (hope he's not going to charge you this) and a month on, if the bloke can't fix it then he needs to get someone who can! does it have air brakes? If it does, then my understanding is when they fail the failsafe is usually that they get stuck on and its not drivable or is it just the handbrake? In april they change the test to include exhaust braking, so the test is only getting more stringent.

However, I had my brakes overhauled when I first bought my lorry and I think the parts cost were on a par with this, I just get frustrated that some mechanics almost experiment - I know its not an exact science (I used to have a car workshop!)

Not sure where you are in Essex, but if you can't get it sorted I have a fantastic mechanic who works on my Iveco and if your chap can't fix it, then he might, otherwise there's a chap who advertises in the back of the Essex Rider who has a good reputation.

 

[humblepie]

As your mechanic has done the master cylinder, I presume it is the service brakes not handbrake which is failing. As the other poster has put, you need weight in the rear - we put in around 1.2 tonnes of heavy items in the lorry (it is a 7.5 tonne Iveco), get mechanic to check the rear load limit valve is functioning and possibly adjust to give more bias to rear brakes and on way to test make sure brakes are bedded in well (i.e. use the brakes as much as possible on the way) and make sure brakes are warm on arrival and hope you don't have to wait too long there!

Good luck. Problem is the brake test at the test centre require a higher level of working then in practice you ever use on the road particularly with horses in the back.

Hope this works.

 

[humblepie]

OH has just added that if you have disc brakes another option which might help is swopping front and rear brake pads as the rear brake pads get glazed over as don't do as much work - if you do that though you do need to bed them in again by doing some mileage.

He did also say that dropping the rear tyre pressure slightly - 10 - 15 psi - can help as it gives more grip on the brake rollers.

I understand your pain - years ago I had a big Ford Cargo that used to always fail on its brakes and I spent a lot of money with a garage getting them sorted every year.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Bangagin]

I've just spoken to him about extra weight, and he said that he loaded about 40 hay bales in to the lorry this morning before testing the brakes again and they were still the same. He feels the only way forward is to try the master cylinder on the front brakes.

He charges £25 per hour and I think to date the total cost is around £1600 - which is ridiculous! If he does the other master cylinder then god knows how much the total bill will be. He has described the lorry as having disk brakes supported by air brakes, but I don't really understand what he means.

The test centre is miles away so brakes would be warm on arrival.

I just don't know what to do now. My son wants to talk to a solicitor about all of this on Monday. Mechanic has had my lorry now since 9th January. I know we had snow for a while, but this has all taken so long. He is working on the lorry in situ where it is parked - is that normal?

I'm in Colchester iconique. This mechanic came highly recommended by local saddlery shop owner as he used to service his lorry and does others in the area. Perhaps I have just been very unlucky, but I had this lorry fully inspected before buying it just so this didn't happen.

 

[smiffyimp]

we used thorpe horse boxes to sort my my lorry that we bought last year - an old F reg. they were spot on. We had a £1000 bill but the breakdown was spot on. My old tuck is just that, but it runs like a dream. I can't help with the issues that you're having with the current mechanic - other than don't pay, but if you need a second opinion, i would recommend Thorpe.

 

[smiffyimp]

oh and from my small knowledge on the brakes thing - loading hay isn't enough! A proper brake test needs different loads applying and testing - I'm no expert as you have probably figured - Thorpe did a proper load test on ours and we have the cert

 

[Bangagin]

I don't know for sure, but am guessing that as the lorry doesn't have an MOT I can't drive it elsewhere for a second opinion?

 

[iconique]

No, you shouldn't drive it unless to the test centre. At least if its not on his premises then he can't refuse to release it until paid, some people do have their lorries worked on at home, I prefer to let them do their stuff on a ramp or over a pit as it gives them much easier access.
Thorpe have a good reputation, as do priory who are Tiptree, not far from Colchester.

I bought my lorry 5 years ago via a broker, I was assured that I'd have nothing to spend and £2k later I wasn't impressed. So you aren't alone, but the good part was that since I had all that work done so far touch wood its been mostly regular servicing and a check over for the mot - don't want to jinx myself!

And I believe that hay is classed as a dangerous substance - may be wrong but I know its not something they like you to carry into the test station!

 

[Bangagin]

No, you shouldn't drive it unless to the test centre. At least if its not on his premises then he can't refuse to release it until paid, some people do have their lorries worked on at home, I prefer to let them do their stuff on a ramp or over a pit as it gives them much easier access.
Thorpe have a good reputation, as do priory who are Tiptree, not far from Colchester.

I bought my lorry 5 years ago via a broker, I was assured that I'd have nothing to spend and £2k later I wasn't impressed. So you aren't alone, but the good part was that since I had all that work done so far touch wood its been mostly regular servicing and a check over for the mot - don't want to jinx myself!

And I believe that hay is classed as a dangerous substance - may be wrong but I know its not something they like you to carry into the test station!

I know it's the wrong thing to say but I'm glad to hear I am not the only one this has happened to!! I have a spare set of keys, so he cannot refuse to release the lorry - it's parked on the land of the guy that recommended it!

I'm torn between selling the damn thing the moment it passes its MOT, and hanging on to it because in all other respects it has sailed through the MOT.

Grrrrrr!

 

[perfect11s]

I don't know for sure, but am guessing that as the lorry doesn't have an MOT I can't drive it elsewhere for a second opinion?

Sorry but lorry brakes arnt rocket sceince!!! you need to get a comercial vehicle repair place or mobile CV mecanic to sort it out instead of the amateur you have messing with it!!!!
its not funny or safe and if you or he takes it for testing and they decide it is unsafe they will put a prohibition on it and it will have to be recoverd from the test station $$$$$£££££
forget the horse box builders and dealers!!! go to a proper CV workshop philips comercials supply all the parts for the old cargos so it should be an easy fix for someone that knows what there doing an they will have trade plates/ recovery to collect your lorry . hope that helps.....

 

[iconique]

If you've gone to the trouble of fixing it and it does the job you want, then hang on to it, with all this stress why give the advantage to someone else! (you could buy another and get other problems) I love my lorry and safety is more important to me than anything, I prefer to know its done properly not bodged! - unfortunately in my case some other person will get the benefit as I'm having to sell :-(

 

[ecrozier]

As perfect11s says, I have not looked back since using a commercial vehicle mechanic to look after my horseboxes. Yes their labour rate per hour is marginally higher than a man and can type mechanic, but as they have everything on site and can whizz it up on ramp/over pit stc, and have great sources of cheap/reconditioned parts etc, it all balances out in the end I find. The one time I have had a problem with work done by their subcontractor, they fixed the damage FoC.
Back to the OP's problem tho - I may be wrong but when I took my lorry to be played the first year I wasn't aware of how light it was and it almost failed on the brakes, but came up as insufficient load on the testing rather than an actual fail?
We put a tonne of sand in the back now, and no further problems.

 

[Bangagin]

Sorry but lorry brakes arnt rocket sceince!!! you need to get a comercial vehicle repair place or mobile CV mecanic to sort it out instead of the amateur you have messing with it!!!!
its not funny or safe and if you or he takes it for testing and they decide it is unsafe they will put a prohibition on it and it will have to be recoverd from the test station $$$$$£££££
forget the horse box builders and dealers!!! go to a proper CV workshop philips comercials supply all the parts for the old cargos so it should be an easy fix for someone that knows what there doing an they will have trade plates/ recovery to collect your lorry . hope that helps.....

This mechanic was recommended as a CV mechanic. He repairs other lorries so not sure why he is having such problems with mine!

So do I argue the fact that I owe him a lot of money, as of course a second opinion elsewhere is going to cost me on top of what I already owe him!

 

[perfect11s]

I've just spoken to him about extra weight, and he said that he loaded about 40 hay bales in to the lorry this morning before testing the brakes again and they were still the same. He feels the only way forward is to try the master cylinder on the front brakes.

He charges £25 per hour and I think to date the total cost is around £1600 - which is ridiculous! If he does the other master cylinder then god knows how much the total bill will be. He has described the lorry as having disk brakes supported by air brakes, but I don't really understand what he means.

The test centre is miles away so brakes would be warm on arrival.

I just don't know what to do now. My son wants to talk to a solicitor about all of this on Monday. Mechanic has had my lorry now since 9th January. I know we had snow for a while, but this has all taken so long. He is working on the lorry in situ where it is parked - is that normal?

I'm in Colchester iconique. This mechanic came highly recommended by local saddlery shop owner as he used to service his lorry and does others in the area. Perhaps I have just been very unlucky, but I had this lorry fully inspected before buying it just so this didn't happen.

The weight wont affect the front brakes !! the back brakes have a load compenstor that makes them work harder as the body moves down due to the load so yes sometimes you need to put weight in for the test, what he is trying to say I guess is you have an air over hydrolic system which means when you press the brake peddle air is sent to a master cylinder which puts out the brake fluid to the wheel cylinders which then apply the shoes or pads to the drum or disc ..

 

[perfect11s]

This mechanic was recommended as a CV mechanic. He repairs other lorries so not sure why he is having such problems with mine!

So do I argue the fact that I owe him a lot of money, as of course a second opinion elsewhere is going to cost me on top of what I already owe him!

God knows!!!
as a mecanic sometimes you can have unusal problems that take some sorting out however as i said its not that complicated if you you know what you're doing , it does sound like he is out of his depth maybe its worth getting someone else to look and give a quote , however if I thought some amature bodger had been messing I would be wary and want to go right through it again to be sure its safe so it might be pricey to take that route , maybe you could let him continue and argue about the bill after if its alot of money ???

 

[Mike007]

Old ford cargo brakes can be very quirky. I have had similar problems on my own cargo. A major problem frequently is the discs . They develop depresions due to wear and heat. The pad glances from one ridge to the next without biting. Poor discs and old glazed pads cause a lot of problems even when everything seems sound. Another old favourite is the self adjusting rear callipers which have handbrake and service brake combined. The self adjusters fail and the service brake and hand brake fight each other.Do you have the brake test result sheet,if I pm you my Email address you could perhaps scan it and send it to me.

 

[Bangagin]

Just to update, thanks for all the advice but have had a text from mechanic today to say that he replaced master cylinder on rear brakes, tested it on the rolling road and everything is working as it should.

Retest on Monday, so everything crossed for then!

 

[scribble]

if it failed on brakes VOSA would have issued a [prohibition notice which meant it could not be driven unless being taken back to be tested and have prohibition removed. as Perfect11 says back brakes have a load compansator valve on which is atuclly quite large and not just a valve which makes back brakes work harder when loaded. front brakes should work anyway. air brakes do need cleaning through as they will get crap in the lines every few years. my mechanic used to do this and strip them out and re-do them I have changed a load sensor valve on my truck too. You may also need to give it a bit of welly when they test the brkes to make sure it has suffiecient pressure build up to stop them and the pressufre continues.

 

[1rocky1]

try the load sencing valve on the back axle, check its not seized . mine needed freeing off from time to time , bet he's try'd it though !