Problems with EMS and barefoot

[muff747]

Is there anyone else with an EMS barefoot horse? My gelding has been bare for 5 years now and the first two were great, rehab went very well. Then a change of yard seemed to trigger onset of Cushings but I have struggled for the past three years with seasonal footiness, that's what signalled the PPID test. Vet said I would have my old horse back once we started on the Pergolide but it didn't happen so we tried two tablets. Still no change apart from 5 Pergolide tablets later and testing and finally getting ACTH down to normal levels 12 mo later, his appetite and demeanour was normal. But each spring, or after a stressful episode (i.e. moving yards), he goes footy and it takes months to get him comfy again.
Vet is not barefoot fan so he has suggested bruised soles, sore feet or his navicular returning. None of these explanaitions "fit in" with his past performance or care regimen, i.e. I have not ridden him for over a year and his feet go tender when the ground gets soft. In fact, he was fine during the drought and the ground was baked hard. I have had to severely restrict his grass by muzzling, and since it's rained he's been in a completely bare paddock - no grass at all, not even emerging shoots. I have been soaking his haylage since December, when the move to my current yard sent him really downhill and back to how he was three years ago before PPID dx.
Has anyone else got a barefoot Cushings horse that can still be ridden with normal restrictions on grazing?
Does anyone else have a PPID horse with these problems, bare or shod?
He's 23 TBx normal weight and no visible signs of Cushings except pot belly (could due to no schooling) other wise looks fit as a fiddle and vet complements me on his looks for his age. Also vet confirms, his hooves show no signs of laminitis, and I am ultra careful about thrush, can't smell anything suspicious at all. Can anyone help??

 

[cptrayes]

I removed mine from grass completely and he is as happy as larry and as fit as a fiddle. There was no amount of grass he could tolerate without it going to his feet. Like yours, he was a navicular rehab and shoeing again was not an option.

Your vet says he shows no sign of laminitis? Sore soles IS a sign of laminitis. I despair of how many vets still think laminitis goes from not-there-at-all to feet-forward-stance overnight. It doesn't. In a barefoot horse it almost always starts with sensitivity to stones that the horse could have managed fine in the middle of winter or when not on grass.

 

[muff747]

Thanks. Can I ask if you are still riding yours? Matty has never been that comfortable that I could bring him back into work, or even just short hacks, he just seems to be permanently in varying degrees from a bit ouchy if he stands on a big stone to walking as if he has low grade lami - but he never gets any worse than that. Even before he was dx in 2008, he was on limited grazing and just stayed footy, that was when I thought it was the very wet summer that had made his soles soft so was feeling stones more. Prior to his suddenly going footy that spring, I was riding him over any surface without boots for short periods and booted for longer rides. Then when he got footy, I put his Epics with pads on but it made no difference, even when he improved later in the year, and I brought him back into work, it happened at the same time in the spring of 2009, then he was dx with Cushings.
What I can't understand is, he never gets fully back to comfortable even when he is good and not on any grass.
Did yours come back right when you removed the grass totally and how long did that take? How do you manage the no grass are you on a Paddock Paradise? How old and how long has your horse been bare?
Sorry for the Mastermind Quiz, but as you can see I've been struggling with this for three years now. I've been on the EC/IR Yahoo group and had no end of help from them but they seem to be at a loss also.
I meant the signs of lami are no rings around his hooves and his heels are not growing faster than his toes, in fact it's the other way round, I rasp his toes back every week in between my trimmer coming but I still can't keep the roll in that she does, it seems to go back to being long toes within a few days of me rasping. Also his pulse feels normal, even when he's very tender.

 

[LucyPriory]

OP - I am so sorry to hear that you are struggling. Good to hear you have been on the ECIR group - presumably this also means your horse's weight is firmly under control. Have you been able to forage analyse and mineral balance?

I have a few IR and Cushings horses. Generally when the the disease is under control we can get them back to work quite successfully. Sometimes though we have had to do a fair amount of work on the diet in the absence of being able to balance vits/mins.

It is possible that there is something else going on as well.

Do you know how thick his soles are? Do you have any photos you can post?

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks. Can I ask if you are still riding yours?

I gave him away and his new owners won Warrington Show Novice Iberian and Iberian Horse Championship two weeks ago. He's currently hacking on Welsh Mountains He has a dry lot paddock with no grass on it at all. I also have him on a high oil, high vitamin E diet as he had some suggestions of EPSM and it suits him well. He can eat haylage, for example, that lots of horses can't.

He had soles 3.5 mm thick when I got him, I took him on to try and save him, he also had navicular.

The one thing I would suggest is to check for low copper and/or high manganese/iron in your grass and forage. High manganese/iron will give you low copper absorption and that disprupts insulin regulation giving metabolic symtoms or worsening existing metabolic disease. You can ask a local farmer, who should know if there is any mineral imbalance locally (I think molybdenum is also an issue but I am less familiar with that one). You can also look out for cows that look as if they should be black but are turning reddish-brown colour. That also applies to black horses.

 

[popularfurball]

I have another of these ponies! No navi or cushings etc though thankfully.

She is out in a Bare field but shoots are enough to upset the balance. I have a set of old macs with 12mm pads in which I use for hacking as area is awful for stones (pennines). Also use for turnout if necessary too.

Would also look at a forage analysis - expensive but if you sampled when footy you would know what to supp at that time of year

 

[muff747]

Thanks for the replies. When I first moved to this yard, they said they always get haylage from the same supplier so I had it tested and did get a custom supplement to balance it. My next task was to get my very picky eater to take it in his feeds, I was building up the amount in his feeds and managed to get him to tolerate around 2/3rds recommended dose but then the supplier ran out of the haylage. We now get it from where ever it is available. The original analysis showed over 12% S/S so I have just carried on soaking for at least an hour as recommended by EC/IR and still am today, I have biceps like Swartznegger!
I feed Fibrebeet and Graze-on Gold blend, which is under the 10% S/S.
I read a post on the group by Dr Kellon that most horses have excess iron so would benefit from a Zinc/Copper supplement so I give him a 2:1 mix but can only get him to accept about 2/3rds of a teaspoon/day and he gets at least 1600 Iu of Vit E.
He was showing signs of some pain earlier this year so I add 30g of MSM and 30ml Devils Claw and also 30mls aloe vera juice to improve his appetite. I do try to syringe a couple of teaspoons of MagOx daily but not every day.
He has been tested three times for Insulin Resistance but is negative, so when I say he's EMS, he's actually EMMS Equine Metabolic MYSTERY syndrome He has never had a weight problem as such but I have always made sure he didn't get overweight (I don't seem to be able to add a pic so I'm afraid you'll have to trust me on that)
It's difficult to condense the last three years into this post, but I feel as if I have tried everything and still he is footy at certain times of the year.
He's currently in a bare paddock, I mean bare, it's just dirt- and on soaked haylage,he's been in there two weeks and no improvement yet.
The only other thing I might add is he has many signs of DSLD/ESPA although it is not confirmed by diagnosis. Some moderators on the Yahoo group for this disease have said it can be found in the feet but my vet poo poo'd my suggestion and said his fetlocks would be near the ground with that.
I am just hoping my boy is not the only horse in the UK with this mystery and that perhaps there may be others having same problems and have found an answer to it

 

[muff747]

Hi LucyPriory, thankyou for replying. I have followed your blog over the last couple of years when I came across it when searching for answers.
I saw you have a mare (grey?) who is very sensitive to any changes such as grass shoots and even stressful events. You say her feet go splat! Well his do the same, his soles drop flat, his toes shoot forward and he looks like he's got low grade lami. That's what happened spring 2008 and again 2009.
My gelding seems to follow the same pattern as moving yards in December really knocked him for six and sent him right back to square one three years ago.
Can you tell me how is she managed now? Unfortunately I am stuck with livery yards and their regime of turnout etc as my boy gets upset if out on his own so I had to wait for other geldings going out.
He was gelded at four and so he is very hormonal in that mares are very attracted to him and therefore him to them! I did wonder if when he is near mares, if that would upset his balance, being as the cortisol hormone does affect him adversely.
I would hate for him to have no contact with mares, I do like to keep him as natural as is possible (with regard to his problems), but I have had to keep him separated by electric fence as he will mount them if they insist

 

[popularfurball]

Have you looked at something like rig calm to help with the hormones?

We have a mystery syndrome too - our biggest two things are cutting out grass and a decent trimmer. Oh an regular thrush treatment - thrush is rife ATM I think because of wrt/dry spells?

I feed speedi beet and am looking at the equibeanswers 365 complete as a supp but was using naf slimlie and there was a definite improvement in my twos feet on it and very palatable

Otherwise we keep trim intervals short (6weeks) and I keep a roll on toes inbrtween and I boot when necessary but ESP for riding

 

[Pale Rider]

Exercise plays a big part in all this and if you have not ridden him for a year, can I ask why? I may have missed something in your posts.

If it was me I'd put some boots on and hack him out.

 

[LucyPriory]

I saw you have a mare (grey?) who is very sensitive to any changes such as grass shoots and even stressful events. You say her feet go splat! Well his do the same, his soles drop flat, his toes shoot forward and he looks like he's got low grade lami. That's what happened spring 2008 and again 2009.
Can you tell me how is she managed now?

My old grey mare (dearly missed) was diagnosed with 'sprains' for about 10 years. It turned out she was a lami with a non classical presentation. A track and 50 miles of road work a week kept her in good nick. It only fell apart when I couldn't get the exercise into her or if she ate something like molasses.

Current 'chocolate' - dark liver chestnut for purists mare is incredibly difficult. A rescue she is very sensitive to weight gain - I have to keep her just under a condition score of 3/5 - very sensitive to stress, and uber sensitive to sugars. When I got her originally her gut was in very poor health. Her droppings smelt like a rotting carcase. It took a good 12-18 months to slowly turn that round. Laminitis recommended feed is generally guaranteed to make her foot sore........ too high in sugar for her.

One thing they don't really discuss on the ECIR is general 'upsets' of the hind gut. I have looked at various pieces of research and spoken to a few 'bods' and it is a very under explored grey area. We do know more or less for sure that antibiotics and some wormers are a problem. I an pretty sure it is a problem for my horse and some client horses because when we manage them as delicate tummied they improve.

Because I am often away overnight I have to rely on others to look after the chocolate girl for me. She is always more footy on my return. I am pretty sure this is because her very strict timetable has slipped and this has stressed her somewhat. Can't be helped - it happens.

So as well as the low sugar/starch regime with soaked and rinsed hay and carefully monitored turnout out I also feed FFF charcoal, and Yea Sacc. The charcoal has been helpful without doubt in keeping her droppings as I would like them and the Yea Sacc I credit with helping me get her gut functioning again. I probably don't need to feed the YS routinely now, but I do, just in case.

Her bucket contains a tiny amount of Kwik Beet, mixed herbs, NAF Pink Powder and the charcoal & yea sacc. I am pretty sure she is running short on copper so I will further supplement that in due course.

I am careful to avoid blood sugar/insulin spikes

Not sure if this helps at all.

OP Hoof pictures would be very helpful

 

[muff747]

Exercise plays a big part in all this and if you have not ridden him for a year, can I ask why? I may have missed something in your posts.

If it was me I'd put some boots on and hack him out.

Back in 2008, (very wet summer) he went footy whilst wearing boots and pads for hacking out. Whenever I thought he'd improved, I rode again with boots and pads but he went footy again. Ended up with bruising showing around rim of coffin bone so rested over summer, brought back into work winter building up to 1 and half hours hacking, then bang- spring came he went footy, even with boots and pads - dx Cushings in June 2009 - tried riding when reasonably good but it set him back. Tried again in 2010, same thing happened. Since December 2010 his feet just haven't been totally comfortable enough to get on him.

 

[muff747]

Sorry to hear about your mare Lucy. I keep his diet as sugar free as I possibly can, even have a sign over his stable saying NO CARROTS got that from the EC group too.
Only feed a bit higher than recommended is grass nuts, which I add a handful in each feed to get him to clean up the bowl. He is very very picky, I've struggled off and on to get him to eat. He won't eat the Fibrebeet and Gold blend alone, I have to add something to tempt him. I try to wean them out bit by bit but he then leaves some bit by bit until I increase the tasters again.
I did ask the question about leaky gut on the group and Eleanor answered me, she said it wouldn't be possible for the gut to leak to that extent, otherwise the horse would be very very ill. You could check out that post if you do a search for my posts, it was in the last couple months and I haven't posted much lately because they don't seem to know how to answer me anymore. I feel lost now because they can't help and my vet can't help. I'm desperate to find someone who can pinpoint what this is and why he doesn't respond to anything I try to do to help.
I don't know how to post pics on here and I haven't taken any for a while, here's my trimmers web site http://www.abihogghoofcare.co.uk/

 

[popularfurball]

Abi does my two - she is fantastic.

What's the purpose of the gd label?

I was using naf slim line as a supp which my two would eat out the bucket with no mixer! Perhaps changing supp would help? Grass nuts are a recipe for disaster for us.

I too avoid lami approved feeds - it's about who has biggest pr budget IMHO. And that's just not on. Mollichaff do a lovely molasses free chaff and it doesn't have allthe bulkers that dengie trow in theirs. Pink powder is fab for poorly tums

 

[LucyPriory]

Hiya Muff747 - I saw that post and it seemed sensible. I did do a long reply but it vanished (I am no good at this IT stuff).

I have clients with mixed herds all on the same sort of management regime and its most often that its the skinny TBs that have LGL and not the others.

At the bottom of the list of causal factors for LGL (or splat foot) is Factor X - this seems to apply most often to TBs. I have some ideas about Factor X, but most of them are unprintable. PM if you want.

 

[LucyPriory]

oops sorry Muff747 - I've just seen the comment that your horse does have Cushings?

 

[muff747]

Yes he was dx with PPID in June 2009, Following the EC/IR advice, I kept testing and increasing Pergo until I got his ACTH down to normal. That took 12 mo with one thing and another. It took 4 and half tablets to get that result! When I moved him Dec last year and he went downhill fast I had to increase to 5.5 tablets at one time to get it back under control. Now he's back down to 3 tablets as his ACTH was down to normal by last month
By all accounts on the EC/list he shouldn't be at risk of lami when his levels are normal so I just am at my wits end now.
Thanks for your time answering my posts, I've followed your blogs with interest as I am trying to gleen every bit of info to help my boy whereever I can.

 

[muff747]

Abi does my two - she is fantastic.

What's the purpose of the gd label?

I was using naf slim line as a supp which my two would eat out the bucket with no mixer! Perhaps changing supp would help? Grass nuts are a recipe for disaster for us.

You mean the Gold blend? It's a chaff I mix with the Fibrebeet just to bulk it up with more fibre. It's under the recommended 10% sugar and I can feed him that as a replacer if I've run out of soaked hay.
I'll check out the analysis for the NAF product, I do need to find something else he will eat that's safe for him. I know the grass nuts are over the 10% but he only gets a handful in two feeds a day.
I keep thinking I should only give one feed and reduce the amount but the reason I bulk up his diet with biggish feeds is so I can disguise the supplements easier in more feed and also I can get him to take the Pergolide crushed into powder in a feed, hence I have to make sure he eats every bit otherwise he would be getting too small a doseage, I've already dropped it as low as I dare and am watching him llike a hawk for any signs of Cushings coming back.

 

[LucyPriory]

apologies - I may have missed something in the posts. But two things def would make my more troublesome ponies/horses more trouble than usual.

Slimline is based on seaweed. I have had consistently bad results with seaweed with the troublesome sorts as the copper, zinc and mag are just too low. NAF are unable to provide a breakdown of vit/min content so the ability to ensure that neds are getting enough is next to nil. Although it is possible to play the bit of this and bit of that game, I find it is easier to feed a supplement with known vit/min levels.

And the Gold Blend has alfalfa in it. Some horses do fine on alfalfa, others not so much. Still consistently to the day, every horse that has kicked me has been on alfalfa or just recently taken off it.

Having had so much trouble with it I admit to a natural aversion to products with it in. Even if some horses do fine on them - when dealing with a difficult case I won't take the risk.

But that doesn't marry with your spring issues - unless coincidence is playing its part and other changes have all been in spring too.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Oh just a thought - you said he is hormonal and likes his ladies. Well of course in the spring there is the mad rush as they all come into their first season. I wonder if this plays a part. Esp considering the pm.

 

[muff747]

Hi Lucy, yes I have heard that mentioned on the EC/IR group but I thought that was only linked to those that are at risk of IR?
It's the Fibrebeet that has the alfalfa in it, I am fairly sure the Gold Blend is just grass and soft straw - unless they've changed it since last few bags as I haven't checked it out lately.
I have thought about what you said and I probably ought to try keeping him off it for a while to see if that does the trick but going back to 2008/9, I was following the EC group emergency diet using Speedibeet but he was tender footed all the time he was fed the alpha free diet. When I started him on FB, it was to try to get him to eat it without any tempters added, which he did at first, he loved it and licked his bucket clean everytime. I didn't see any change in him, and at that time, I was at my old yard where I had my little PP going on and his feet were best they'd been since his problems started. I will try him off it when I have tried other suggestions - I just bought two bags of FB yesterday morning! I usually try different things alone because if I try a few things all at once and it works, I have no idea which new thing made the difference so I'm going to try the charcoal first, then the yeast. Thanks to all for your help.