Problems with Irish Draft?

[Lola43]

I am interested to find out whether anyone else has had similar experiences with regard to Irish Draft horses as myself. I am not making any generalisations or condemning the breed, or anything like that. I am merely relating what has happened to me personally.

Seven years ago I bought a really well-bred ISH gelding from the breeder in Ireland. He was a lovely, lovely horse and I was devastated when he had to be pts in February, aged 11. He had neurological problems as a result of arthritis in the neck. He had been treated with cortisone injections into the vertebrae, but this was an utter failure.

In March, I bought a well-bred RID gelding, aged 7. Despite a five stage vetting, within five days of purchase he had a dramatic change in personality and was eventually diagnosed with neurological problems as a result of arthritis in the neck. Again, the horse had to be pts.

By this stage, I had lost ££,£££ and couldn't afford to buy another horse. In addition, I was so traumatised by my experiences I wasn't sure I wanted to go down that road anyway. However, a couple of weeks ago I was persuaded to 'get back in the saddle' by a friend of a friend, who is a professional trainer/event rider. She knew of the perfect horse, a 6 yo IDx, and so I threw caution to winds and went to try it. All seemed good, so I made an offer and had the horse vetted. The vetting was stopped halfway through as the horse had shivers, yet another neurological condition.

Fortunately, I could walk away from this horse but what are the odds of coming across so many neurological problems? I am a one-horse owner, I'm not a dealer or a professional, so how could I manage to find three in a row? I've thought long and hard about all three and the only common denominator is that the horses all have ID breeding and came from Ireland.

Has this happened to anyone else?

 

[khalswitz]

Not Irish Draught, but my Irish TB has shivers. Thankfully his seems to be PSSM related, and is manageable by diet.

 

[spacefaer]

What a really bad run of luck you've had. It's not something I've heard ofand we gave Iirish draughts coming out of our ears.

Did the 1st 2 horses have an ancestor in common? It might be possible that a combination of bloodlines has produced a recessive gene with a predisposition to arthritis in the neck?

Finding one with shivers (which is quite a rare condition) seems to be appalling bad luck

 

[Lola43]

Shivers does seem to be variable in it's severity/treatability. Good luck with yours and hope the diet management continues to work.

 

[spacefaer]

A further thought re the bony changes in the neck....

A few years ago I had a lovely young irish event horse. He was 6 when I bought him and had just done his 1st intermediate. Long story short, he had soundness issues and showed symptoms of head shaking. After lots of investigation, turned out he had had an old neck injury -similar to whiplash - from a fall loose jumping as a two year old. If he hadn't shown signs of being uncomfortable, his vertebrae would have become arthritic if we hadn't treated the neurological signs.

Just a thought - a lot of people loose jump their young horses in Ireland, and it's very tempting to go too far if they're jumping well.

 

[Lola43]

I have looked at the family tree of both my first and second horse and there are common ancestors, but some generations back. I really don't know anything about genetics but what I have read about arthritis in the neck subsequently seems to conclude that it is a hereditary predisposition which in conjunction with other factors, such as growing too big too fast when young, can lead to problems later. Which I suppose logically means it might be a bit of a lottery as to which horses develop the condition.

Therefore, I am just the unluckiest person in the whole history of unlucky people!

 

[Lola43]

I believe that in addition to the hereditary element, that it can definitely be caused by trauma when young. There are an awful lot of variables involved. My first horse I knew everything about - bought as a four year old from the breeder when I lived in Northern Ireland. He was wrapped in cotton wool from the moment I had him and prior to that had just been in a herd of other youngsters out in the fields. The second horse came from doing a season in the Beaufort. He was very thin (owner said he was hunting fit), on the forehand with no topline and weak quarters. The horse with shivers was also on the forehand with no topline and weak quarters. I believe both my second horse and the one I didn't buy were originally brought over from Ireland looking like hat racks by dealers. Possibly these horses were started too young and then did too much too soon, without building up the correct muscle to support themselves. However, that wasn't the case with the first one. Confused? I am!

 

[sportsmansB]

Being in (Northern) Ireland, we have plenty, and to be honest its not something I have really come across with a lot of well bred event horses crossing my path. My soundness generalisations are more warmblood-related to be honest (!).
Not sure either about doing too much too young- especially when compared with continental dressage/jumping prospects?! Though many do grow quite tall quite young
It is awful but does sound as though you have just been desperately unlucky and I really feel for you- we put so much into horses and when you get nothing back & have nothing left it is devastating.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

I've seen more ataxia etc in Warmbloods than I have neurological stuff in IDs.

my own IDx has many personality traits but thankfully no neuro conditions

 

[Lola43]

I'm not sure whether it makes it better or worse to just be so unlucky!

I did ask my vet how I could be in this situation and he said that he had known it with dressage riders who mistook ataxia for elevated paces, but I can honestly say I was thinking more about temperament than movement.

 

[cavalo branco]

Your post has got me thinking about ID's - luckily my 6 year old RID is fit and healthy but he did come over from Ireland to his first owner at just 4 years old and, I believe, having hunted for a season!
He then hunted for another season before I bought him at just 5 years old.
It does seem that many Irish horses are hunted early and I wonder whether this does any lasting damage?
Just a thought although I do think that you have been incredibly unlucky

 

[MiniMilton]

Well they say bad luck comes in 3. You have been incredibly unlucky. I'm living in Ireland so am surrounded by irish bred horses, ISH and RID's. In my experience neurological problems are quite rare. I only personally know of one horse with it and he didn't have any ID in him. He was also produced slowly to be an eventer. Yes it is standard for horses to be hunted here as a 3yo. Most have no ill effects from it. (I know it is not ideal practice though)
Was it the same vet for all 3 vettings?
I knew a connemara gelding that was vetted twice. The first vet said he was absolutely a shiverer. The people loved him so much that they got a second opinion and the pony passed a full 5 stage vetting. I knew the pony for a few years afterwards and there was no symptoms of it. I have since lost touch so I dont know what the situation is now.

 

[budley95]

I feel really sorry for you as that just seems incredibly lucky! I've had mine since April 2005. He's full up ID sire's side and mum was as ISH (so basically he's 3/4 ID and 1/4 tb!). He does suffer from arthritis now at 14. He did however fail his vetting on a conformational fault with his pelvis where the off side is higher than the near. His arthritis is in his near stifle for obvious reasons! He came from Ireland as a 5 year old after he had been used at stud out there. He did have a thing as a youngster about just randomly broncing that somebody said was neurological, but he grew out of it - I think it was just stallion like tendencies for a few years after being gelded so late! It seems incredibly unlucky for you. I know lots of dealers that bring horses over from Ireland very regularly and I don't know of any horses with neurological problems, ok they do have the odd nutty one, but it's usually been ok after 6 months chucked in a field to grow up and then brought back into work! I'm sorry about all your bad luck! I hope you find a horse you fall in love with that doesn't fail a vetting very soon!

 

[Templebar]

I have looked at the family tree of both my first and second horse and there are common ancestors, but some generations back. I really don't know anything about genetics but what I have read about arthritis in the neck subsequently seems to conclude that it is a hereditary predisposition which in conjunction with other factors, such as growing too big too fast when young, can lead to problems later. Which I suppose logically means it might be a bit of a lottery as to which horses develop the condition.

Therefore, I am just the unluckiest person in the whole history of unlucky people!

This would more likely lead me to believe it would be less common in Irish horses as it is commonly said around me that they take the longest to mature and some dont reach full height until they are at least 7. However also on that thought is the fact that some people start working horses young, from around 2 on wards especially if you think it may turn out a chunky 17hh then it partially makes sense that they want to start them young to avoid a fight but therefore lead to injuries later on in life.

 

[Lola43]

I personally don't know of anyone else who has had the same problems as me, irrespective of breeding - hence this post. I mostly hunt/RC stuff, so in theory the Irish types are right up my street. However, having had my fingers so severely burnt (the last abortive vetting cost over £300!) with Irish horses, I thought I would ask around before I abandon Ireland completely and go Dutch!

 

[cptrayes]

One of my two Dutch was a congenital wobbler with laryngeal hemiplegia and the other was cold backed and would not jump. My one and only German has kissing spines. I've had more than a dozen Irish who've only had one case of spavins between them, they are real tough crosses, I think you've been very unlucky.

 

[Tiffany]

You have been so unlucky and so have the horses. I've not heard it being a problem with IDs although I suppose there could be an hereditary link if sire/dam same?

 

[YorksG]

This is probably a silly question, but were the ID's with problems greys? We had a grey ID mare who we lost young, actually from cellulitis, but she had had back problems and some temprement issues prior. A friend of ours also has a grey ID with lameness issues and who is very much a worrier and an anxious type.

 

[Lola43]

The ISH was iron grey - still had a lot of colour age 11. Funnily enough, about six weeks before the neurological problems surfaced he developed full blown lymphangitis in all four legs. His legs had just gone down and I had started to ride him again when he started wobbling.

The RID was liver chestnut. The IDx shiverer was another iron grey.

Despite the same underlying cause, the symptoms displayed by the ISH in the first instance were totally different to the RID.

 

[buzzles]

I'm in Ireland and have to say I've never heard of this before and would know a lot of ID or IDx. All my own horses are either IDxTB and I have a pure ID and Connemara. Just to say please don't tar all Irish owners with the same brush, while there are those who start them young and do hunt and loose jump 3 yo, there are those like myself who take it slow when they're young. While mine are well handled and backed at 3 and they trick around a bit at 4, I don't start proper work really til they're 5. My ID is 5 now and he has never hunted yet- I plan on doing a few quieter days with him this winter if I don't sell him. He's already grown an inch this summer and will continue to mature and fill out til he's probably 8. Sorry you've had such bad luck but I don't think it is necessarily an ID thing- it might be more how much he did when he was young and I think over here because a lot of horses are prepared for the sales or a quick sale they do a 'crash course' so do a lot of intense work over a short period so maybe be careful who you buy from.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think you have been unlucky .
I have so many Irish horses though my hands and although I do think they are very prone to all the issues that horses get when they have to much careless mileage early I have never had one with neurological issues .

 

[Lola43]

Thanks buzzles. My first horse was certainly taken slow. I bought him pretty much straight out of the field in Ireland as a four year old, having been just backed. I used to live in Ireland so knew his breeder, knew his dam, knew where he had spent the first four years of his life, everything. I had him professionally schooled and everything was done by the book - slowly, no pressure and didn't take him hunting for the first time until he was 6. He was just a delight to own and ride - a true gentleman and genuinely affectionate. Therefore when he had to be pts I was utterly heartbroken.

It seemed a no-brainer to buy another Irish. However, couldn't get any response from the breeder of my last horse when asked if he could find me something in Ireland, so I was forced to go shopping over here. I wasn't really looking for a full RID, but the one I chose seemed to have the right temperament so I went for it. I think this horse's background couldn't have been more different from my first horse. I was told he had done a couple of seasons already in Ireland before being brought over and then had earned his keep doing a full season with the Beaufort, which I'm sure was pretty testing. He was rising 7, so must have packed quite a lot in for such a young age. I think the one I didn't buy probably had a similar upbringing.

Both horses that were pts had absolutely fantastic temperaments and were lovely to ride, which makes what happened even more tragic. However, two totally different stories for both of them, and yet the same end result.

The posts replying to my original question lead me to conclude that there is no genetic timebomb lurking in the Irish gene pool. Rather, I seem to be the kiss of death to horses and for the sake of horses everywhere perhaps I should stop looking!!!

 

[Mike007]

so true!