Pros and placebos....

S

spaniel

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Following on from a comment Freshman has made in another post.....

"I am flattered you feel that the rider did his job. However I answered this point last night. Pro riders do not get affected by a placebo effect"

(Freshman I hope you dont mind me quoting you)

I find this genuinely interesting and was quite surprised. Please in no way take this as personal towards Andy and Fresh but I know we have a number of pro and serious amateur riders here and would love to know if they feel that they too are not affected by the 'placebo' effect.

Is the mindset of the pro rider so different to those who havent competed and does that mental make up come with experience or is it one of the reasons why some people make it to the top whilst others dont?

Discuss. (nicely!)
 
I think it IS the reason why some people make it to the top whilst others do not. Pro riders are, IMHO, far more level headed, if they suffer nerves then they are *good* nerves, they are seldom out of the competition arena so it is the same as you or I riding in the arena at home.

I also think that many Pro riders are ultimately very natural riders (whether they conform with beautiful riding or not, they have natural empathy for the sport in which they have made a name for themselves - think Geoff Billington for example), therefore they are more comfortable on a horse than off it.
 
I will also find this interesting.
The only way I would argue that pro's don't get affected by placebo effect would be because they generally ride lots of horses all the time and therefore I would imagine get on and ride what is 'in front of them on the day'?? I'm not sure if I'm making sense but I know what I mean!!
 
No problem Spans, you carry on. I think it is an interesting point now that you have mentioned it. LOL.
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I missed the origional post where whatever you're talking about was first talked about..
I compete at a good level, and am very interested in this sort of thing.. so what's on?? will add. my thoughts if i knew what you were on about? hehe
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Interesting point but I'm not entirely sure I agree. I think anyone and everyone can be susceptible to the placebo effect. In some ways, when it comes to competitions I think this is similar to superstition, 'I won't win unless I can find my lucky socks' type thing. I also think that there is a huge psychological aspect to winning and anything that makes you feel you have a performance edge over your fellow competitiors can have a very real effect on your confidence, performance etc.
 
I'm no pro nor even a serious amateur, but to my mind what sets pros apart from the rest of us is their ability to focus on the job in hand and not get flustered when things go wrong - they just sit, breathe and carry on. External things don't distract them from the job in hand, and a rail down (or whatever) does not throw them off.

I also think they are better equipped to use their skills in that they have the self-belief mindset, so I'm not sure I agree that they wouldn't be affected by placebo, just that they would put that effect to better use than the rest of us by being able to focus that positive mindset even more. Sorry, do not know how to explain that last bit at all well.
 
I was shocked by how vitriolic some members were in the thread (just found it) and have to agree with Freshman, trying the product before a comp is the only way to assess it properly when the distractions are at their highest, it's no damn good trying at home on a calm horse!
Pro riders don't really see failure as part of their game; that's what makes them successful. I don't believe any of them ever enter a ring without secretly thinking they might win the class. Average type riders however worry beforehand about which jump their horse might spook at; their minds just aren't in the winning frame before they start.
Think of Aldiniti, with a different rider that day I bet he wouldn't have won the National.
There is no doubt professional riders have a strength of purpose that others lack..
And any placebo will have bugg** all effect on that sense of purpose!
 
Thanks Freshman.

So does the 'no placebo' affect also extend to other areas. I know that many of the top riders and presumeably most of the 'teams' have a whole host of help going on in the background and that this would include people like sports psychologists (this certainly happens a lot in other sports IME).

Does the wider aspect of sport psychology have an effect or is it just a comfort or bolster to a riders already innate confidence in their own ability?
 
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Interesting point but I'm not entirely sure I agree. I think anyone and everyone can be susceptible to the placebo effect. In some ways, when it comes to competitions I think this is similar to superstition, 'I won't win unless I can find my lucky socks' type thing. I also think that there is a huge psychological aspect to winning and anything that makes you feel you have a performance edge over your fellow competitiors can have a very real effect on your confidence, performance etc.

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Now this is an interesting point - I know pros do have lucky objects etc - I handed Daisy Dick some spurs she was about to forget once and she was very grateful because she said they were her lucky spurs!

So if they are not susceptible to placebo, why would they have lucky objects?
 
Sunflower I think that's a really interesting point - the first time I competed Louis at an affiliated competition we came 1st and since then I always insist on wearing certain things that I wore on that day (e.g same hairnet - gross!). I don't get nerves really at a competition, I get a big adrenalin rush (don't think you can ride your best if you don't have that feeling inside you)but more from excitement and wanting to get out there and win! But I maybe wouldn't feel as positive without my lucky pants and hairnet haha.
 
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to my mind what sets pros apart from the rest of us is their ability to focus on the job in hand and not get flustered when things go wrong - they just sit, breathe and carry on.

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I agree with this - think it comes partly from experience and partly natural ability but it must surely make a difference to your ability in the arena. When I was younger i used to get so stressed and so flustered but now (not that I'm comparing myself to a top rider as I'm a long way off!!) I am so 100% focused when in a competitive environment and think that has helped my results. I get into the zone or whatever the saying is
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I agree. I have mentioned on a couple of threads lately about the placebo effect and been jumped on for it but...
I think when you mention the placebo effect some people take offence as they think you are implying that they are in some way stupid which is not the case at all. The placebo effect is very real and is something that has to be taken into account before any drug is licenced for use. The power of suggestion is very strong and is something that is exploited by many companies who use lots of fancy technical terms and quotes praising the product. If you try a new probuct on a horse then at some level you will be looking for an effect (otherwise you wouldn't need to use it). Now it may be that the effect you see is genuinely due to the action of the product or it may be due to something the rider is doing subconsciously to influence the horse. If you have a product that is very smartly packaged with glowing recommendation from a top rider who you respect then you are more likely to see a positive effect then if the product was badly packaged with lukewarm comments.
Some people are more open to the power of suggestion then others but I don't think anyone is immune - not even professional riders.
 
And my observation is that some riders are affected by what they believe, be it that the horse is calmer because it has had a calming paste or that they are invincible because they have have never had a bad fall or that they cannot function with out certain superstitions being carried out.
I can think of one who always alters his saddle before he goes xc, doesnt matter who has put it on oe even if he has just got off it showjumping whatever. if you tied his hands together and stopped him, would that have affected his performance?
I can also think of another time when a rider insisted on a horse having large amounts of calmers before a test. which would have been fine except when i went to find them they werent there. i didnt dare either stress the rider so soon before big class nor did i have time to take shuttle and go on a shopping trip. we had only used this product before at home ( to test adverse reaction which is why i never use new product at a show if i can help it) so i said nothing and let her get on with test. which was the best one the horse had ever done to that point. since then it hasnt really reproduced that even though now it is getting the calmers but the tests are generally better. Do you think the rider just riode it more calmly because she thought it was under the influnce so to speak x
 
In our experience Sports Phychologists tend to work towards riders goals, much emphasis is put on the rider & Horse/s strengths & weaknesses. Then moves into what can be done about this in training & also physical fitness. I believe it involves finding out & getting a rider to voice what problems they forsee in competitions & helping to overcome it.
Basically. If there is a problem, they do there utmost to help find a solution.
Even to a worry about a horse not having good healthy hoof growth. That person finds the right help to try & put it right. So for me it is more about a wealth of knowledge & Information at your fingertips.
 
Well perhaps I am a little at x purposes here. My definition at the time of making that comment was regarding actually administering a product/supplement or even drug.
I think lucky socks, pants spurs etc are plain old superstition. I did not take that into consideration when making the statement.
Mind you I am very grateful Andy is not supersticious (sp) either. You wouldnt want to live in a horsebox with him wearing the same old socks & undies at a 4 day show
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This is going to sounds really stupid (and im a bit embarassed saying it
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) but when im warming up at comps and in the ring ive started pretending i am a professional rider and its has a really good effect of keeping me calm and focussed and my horses certainly seem to feel it. anyway......im going to go die of shame now lol
 
I still think it all boils down to the same thing. It's not whether the supplement etc has an effect, it's why it does. In other words, is the perceived change in your horse actually down to the product itself or is it, as Weevil suggests, that you are looking for a positive change in your horse and the belief that it has worked is what improves your riding or attitude and therefore the performance of the horse. I don't think that this is any different to believing that it is your lucky knickers etc that have made you a better rider.
 
I think people are forgetting what a Placebo is. You think it is the real product and it does really work. In your head that product works. A placebo is something which is identical in looks to the original but you would never know it was a fake.

So everyone who is taking any sort of calmer etc believes it does work, if they don't believe it works it isn't a placebo. It is irrelevant if it does or doesn't really work as long as the person believes it does.

I get annoyed at myself over Asprin. I know that it takes 20 mins to get into my bloodstream and kick in, so why the moment I pop the pill does my headache disappear? I am so easily manipulated by what is written on the packet.
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placebo effect occurs when a patient's symptoms are altered in some way (i.e., alleviated or exacerbated) by an otherwise inert treatment, due to the individual expecting or believing that it will work.

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So in the situations we're discussing in this thread, a product may have an effect but what we're discussing is whether this is due to the actual effect of the product on the animal or is it an effect on the animal due to the expectation and behavioural changes of the rider based on what they think will happen.
 
I agree that whoever you are - pro or amateur - you are susceptible to the placebo effect. Possibly more so if you are a pro because its their livelihood, so much rides (excuse the pun) on your horses going well ??? That doesn't mean that they are stupid or nieve in anyway, its the desire for things to go well.

The idea of having lucky socks/spurs/breeches or having a certain ritual before going xc etc does not really relate to the placebo effect - that is simply supistition and the strange way in which the human mind works, but again would be related to the desire to do well and stay safe!
 
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