Proving horse ownership

[Megs11]

Hi guys, i'm looking for some advice on where i stand with my horse who was brought as a gift for me 6 years ago by a family member. Said family member is no longer considered family due to various reasons (not horse related) they're now asking for their money back for my horse. I have cared for this horse and paid for my horse for the last 6 years, they don't see the horse and haven't paid a penny since buying them for me.
We have no contract in place which i know is silly but at the time it didnt seem necessary.
I have the passport with my name on it but am aware that is not a proof of ownership.
I can provide all livery, vet, farrier and all othe reciepts if needed.
Just wanted to know where i stand as they were unbroken when i had them and a lot of time and money has gone into them.
Any help appreciated

 

[mini-eventer]

Its tricky without a contract. Your reply should be, I am more than happy to buy your horse off you. In the mean time please find enclosed an invoice covering the costs incurred whilst caring for your horse...

Livery
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[Pearlsasinger]

I wouldn't expect a contract with a gift but otherwise, I agree with mini-eventer.

 

[IrishMilo]

I think this is a situation where even if they went as far as to take you to small claims court, they'd have no way of proving the horse is theirs [officially] unless they still have the receipt, which I'm guessing they don't.

 

[PurBee]

More info needed really.

Does the relative who bought the horse have ownership paperwork? If the horse was a gift, for it to belong to you - normally people pass on the ‘transfer of ownership’ paperwork....IF the horse was bought with paperwork...?

At the time of being gifted the horse, were you under the impression the horse was legally yours to own?...or did relative say they keep ownership, you have ‘use’ of the horse?

Mini-eventer said a great idea - if they now are claiming they OWN the horse, then present them with a bill of ALL care costs.
If it gets muddy, and they insist on taking the horse back - get legal advice and initiate online a small claims court retrieval of upkeep fees. Although, the small claims procedure has a limit what can be claimed...5k?....which over 6yrs of horse care is probably a half/quarter of what youve spent.

 

[shortstuff99]

Do you have any messages etc anywhere that have them saying it is a gift?

 

[Megs11]

Its tricky without a contract. Your reply should be, I am more than happy to buy your horse off you. In the mean time please find enclosed an invoice covering the costs incurred whilst caring for your horse...

Livery
Shoes
Feed
Labour
Travel
Dentist
Vaccinations...

thank you, that was something i was thinking i could do

 

[Megs11]

Do you have any messages etc anywhere that have them saying it is a gift?

i've looked and becasue it was 6 years ago i can't find anything unfortunately

 

[Megs11]

Its tricky without a contract. Your reply should be, I am more than happy to buy your horse off you. In the mean time please find enclosed an invoice covering the costs incurred whilst caring for your horse...

Livery
Shoes
Feed
Labour
Travel
Dentist
Vaccinations...

I think this is a situation where even if they went as far as to take you to small claims court, they'd have no way of proving the horse is theirs [officially] unless they still have the receipt, which I'm guessing they don't.

The horse was brought off a friend and i collected the horse myself, therefore no receipt!

 

[AmyMay]

The horse was brought off a friend and i collected the horse myself, therefore no receipt!

can you speak to the friend and ask them who they think the horse was bought for?

 

[Megs11]

More info needed really.

Does the relative who bought the horse have ownership paperwork? If the horse was a gift, for it to belong to you - normally people pass on the ‘transfer of ownership’ paperwork....IF the horse was bought with paperwork...?

At the time of being gifted the horse, were you under the impression the horse was legally yours to own?...or did relative say they keep ownership, you have ‘use’ of the horse?

Mini-eventer said a great idea - if they now are claiming they OWN the horse, then present them with a bill of ALL care costs.
If it gets muddy, and they insist on taking the horse back - get legal advice and initiate online a small claims court retrieval of upkeep fees. Although, the small claims procedure has a limit what can be claimed...5k?....which over 6yrs of horse care is probably a half/quarter of what youve spent.

No ownership paperwork, i have everything. The horse was brought off a friend and i collect it therefore everything was handed to me.
Yes the horese was brought for me solely, they weren't going to have any involvement with the horse.
They're not horsey people so therefore couldn't care for the horse, they just want the money but after 6 years of me caring for the horse and myself having all paperwork surely that makes me the owner?
All they did was pay to buy the horse, nothing else so they would have proof of the bank transfer. i have been threatened with debt collectors!!

 

[Megs11]

can you speak to the friend and ask them who they think the horse was bought for?

yes i can and they will say me because thats who it was brought for so yes i do have them as evidence

 

[Megs11]

Do you have any messages etc anywhere that have them saying it is a gift?

it was 6 years ago so unfortunately i cannot find them now

 

[Megs11]

Its tricky without a contract. Your reply should be, I am more than happy to buy your horse off you. In the mean time please find enclosed an invoice covering the costs incurred whilst caring for your horse...

Livery
Shoes
Feed
Labour
Travel
Dentist
Vaccinations...

yes this is what i think i will have to do. i could understand if it was a loan but i've paid for the costs thinking the horse is my own and now i've been threatened with debt collectors!

 

[AmyMay]

Debt collection advice

https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/debt-collection/debt-passed-to-a-collection-agency.aspx

 

[ycbm]

Will all your family/friends confirm that this was a gift? Does the family member have any witnesses that it wasn't?

If that's yes and then no, I don't think you have a problem.

They can't call in debt collectors until they have a court order. Unless they can find reputable witnesses to over ride yours, I don't think they have any chance of winning a court order.

Call their bluff.
.

 

[Megs11]

Will all your family/friends confirm that this was a gift? Does the family member have any witnesses that it wasn't?

If that's yes and then no, I don't think you have a problem.

They can't call in debt collectors until they have a court order. Unless they can find reputable witnesses to over ride yours, I don't think they have any chance of winning a court order.

Call their bluff.
.

Yes my whole family will vouch for this and the person the horse was brought off. i will send them an invoice for all costs involved i think

 

[ycbm]

Debt collection advice

https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/debt-collection/debt-passed-to-a-collection-agency.aspx

That's for commercial debts and requires a contract to have been in place in order to enforce the contract. A debt agency won't just take on a case because a private individual says someone owes them money.

 

[ycbm]

Yes my whole family will vouch for this and the person the horse was brought off. i will send them an invoice for all costs involved i think

Be careful. Do not write anything which appears to acknowledge that you don't own the horse. I think sending a bill would confirm that you know that they own it, otherwise why would they owe for its keep?
.

 

[moosea]

Write to them.
Tell them that the horse was a gift.
If the horse was not a gift list the expenses incurred by the horse in the last 6 years.
Then add on the hours you have worked on / with horse and bill them at any price you like as long as it is above NMW. Then add on time spent travelling to and from/ petrol.
They will run a mile!!

Also might be worth getting saome legal advice - just in case.

 

[ycbm]

I would write to them recording your witnesses that this was a gift and stating your other evidence, eg no contact or interest shown in the horse all this time, no bills paid, no loan contract.

Please don't bill them, as I said above, that would simply confirm that you accept that they owned the horse.

 

[Megs11]

Be careful. Do not write anything which appears to acknowledge that you don't own the horse. I think sending a bill would confirm that you know that they own it, otherwise why would they owe for its keep?
.

because if they're stating i owe money for the horse surely that means they think they currently own it which they don't, therefore they would owe me for keeping it for 6 years surely?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

because if they're stating i owe money for the horse surely that means they think they currently own it which they don't, therefore they would owe me for keeping it for 6 years surely?

Yes... but.....

1st you need to hit them with the 'prove its your horse' counter statement.

IF they then are able to legally prove its theirs, THEN you counter claim for expenses.

That's why you keep your powder dry on billing them, don't mention it till ownership is proven beyond all doubt.

 

[Megs11]

yes okay i'll go down that route first thanks

 

[ycbm]

because if they're stating i owe money for the horse surely that means they think they currently own it which they don't, therefore they would owe me for keeping it for 6 years surely?

And the last thing you want to do right now is anything that suggests you think they might be right.

Please don't bill them, it will go against you badly if it goes to court.
.

 

[Goldenstar]

Easiest thing is to pay them what the horse cost .
Its your horse , and you can’t ask for the return of a gift that’s the law .The question is can you prove it was gift .
If you can then I would get a solicitor to send them a letter to that effect .

DON‘T bill them for the costs it’s your horse you can’t swop and change your position .

 

[PurBee]

So they have no paperwork for the horse - you even collected the horse and all paperwork handed to you - which is in your name. So out of the 2 of you, you are the one with proof of ownership.

If they wanted to retain ownership the responsibility lies with them at point of sale to keep receipt and have horse paperwork in their name. As they didnt do this (because it was a gift) they cannot change their mind on a gift 6 yrs later.

The law wont support them, and see they’re trying to ‘take back’ their gift, now you’ve fallen out.

 

[JackFrost]

You may be stepping into a legal minefield. The issue is not who the horse was bought for but who the 'friend' sold it to, i.e. who paid for it. If the family member paid, that would normally mean it belonged to them. As I understand it, you do not have original paperwork other than the passport, but you do not know what record the other person may have. If they now say it was not in their mind as an outright gift with transfer of ownership, that may be hard for you to contest. There are not enough facts here to give you sound advice, and paying for specialist advice will cost you. You do not say how much the person wants, what the horse was originally worth, or its value now.

If this person has been ostracized from their former family, the hurt may run deep and this is probably not really about the money.
You do not say how you feel about the real possibility of losing your horse friend. If I were in this situation and I loved this horse, I would try to come to a friendly agreement or compromise with this person, possibly being willing to pay the original cost to get all the paperwork sorted. I have seen enough things go to court to know that who wins is a bit of a toss-up. Once you start down the legal route it may be hard to back-track, and they can play the legal game too.

 

[neddy man]

Are you a BHS Gold member? If you are you can use their legal services.

 

[neddy man]

Surely the previous owners will say it was bought for you as a present.