PSSM Advice please?

[Melody Grey]

Sorry, long post ahead! I've posted about various issues with my main horse Monty (in profile pic). Our vet investigations are ongoing, but I'm strongly considering he might be a PSSM horse- probably type 2?

Does this seem a justified conclusion from these.....?
- vastly unpredictable temperament, a real Jekyll and Hyde- placid one day to explosive the next with no consistent explanation
-tickly and reactive, especially around his haunches- kicks out when grooming, particularly on RHS
-tense in his back- some days more than others
-noticeably stiff if not worked daily, better some days, not others
-generally lacking oomph and impulsion (some days, other days off his head)

His 'other' investigations include a ligament strain in Right front hoof (currently MRI'd and correctively shod), SI has been medicated, lengthly ulcer treatment (scoped clear). He's back in the vet hospital next week to investigate hind PSD as a potential issue or whether SI needs mediacting again- he's still not right, but it is so up and down- some days he's like Tigger, others like a slug.

As regards management;
-daily turnout on restricted grazing. Never allowed to 'just go for it' at the grass- I strip graze and supplement with hay when there's not much grass allowed. Always has access to forage when in- fairly 'rough' hay but ad lib.
-fed on 1 scoop Alfa A molasses free, 400g pink mash, 200ml/day Corn Oil, equimins advance (although no other sources of vitamins)- split into AM and PM feeds.
-worked most days, mainly hacking (due to lack of decent school surface) 30- 60 mins/ day.

So.....should I consider adding Vit E? If so, how much?
I've read somewhere that the oil should be Vegetable oil and in greater quantities- any advice?

Obviously not going to do anything drastic before going back to the vets next week, but thinking ahead here!

 

[Melody Grey]

To add: Tested negative for Cushings, full blood screen in July revealed nothing out of place.

 

[SEL]

Did you test for type 1 and that is why you are considering type 2? Its cheap to test for type 1 via Animal Genetics.

Yes, all of those could be down to PSSM. I wouldn't increase the oil without a diagnosis because if he isn't type 1 then it is unnecessary. Vitamin E needs to be natural source not synthetic (progressive earth, Equimins, forage plus all do it) and many of us start at 10,000iU for a couple of weeks to see if there is a difference.

 

[SEL]

And rugging is quite important. They really don't respond well to cold and wet - which seems to be the UK winter these days!

 

[Melody Grey]

Did you test for type 1 and that is why you are considering type 2? Its cheap to test for type 1 via Animal Genetics.

Yes, all of those could be down to PSSM. I wouldn't increase the oil without a diagnosis because if he isn't type 1 then it is unnecessary. Vitamin E needs to be natural source not synthetic (progressive earth, Equimins, forage plus all do it) and many of us start at 10,000iU for a couple of weeks to see if there is a difference.

Thanks SEL- really useful. No, I haven't tested for type 1 but will look into that, thankyou
I had got the impression from reading around that he was 'more the type' for type 2 (Welsh x unknown Sport horse, possibly TB?).
Is the treatment the same for both- does it matter which type? (sorry if that's a stupid question!)

 

[Melody Grey]

And rugging is quite important. They really don't respond well to cold and wet - which seems to be the UK winter these days!

I must admit I don't rug him that much at all, but that's an easy thing to address going forward. He always feels like a 'warm horse', although not sweaty. Do PSSM horses feel cooler, i.e. feel like they need rugging more?

 

[Melody Grey]

So increased oil not necessary with type 1 but vit E necessary with both types?

 

[paddy555]

test for PSSM 1 is only £35 from animal genetics, takes a week, doesn't need a vet. Management bet. 1 and 2 is different. Possibly not PSSM1 but always worth being sure.

Vit E, 10000iu per day, don't build up just go straight into it. Natural, eqimins oil is cheaper, forage plus powder more expensive. Both have been used successfully. You can blood test for vit E level. If horse is in hospital could be worth doing whilst he is there.

Rugging is vital. mine is in 450g. Keeping dry also important, a good exercise sheet when riding. Always rugged, always warm. PSSM horses seem to need a much higher degree of rugging. Not all obviously but in general.
Movement is vital. Riding every day. Warm up and cool down a lot more slowly than for normal horses.

Preferably not stabled. A yard or stable with open door or a shelter is ideal to allow continual movement.


Keep a diary of weather, rugging and work and see if there is a pattern.

Lots of other PSSM threads on here if you do a search with lots more info.

Muscle problems lead onto other problems. Often people wondering about PSSM wonder if the horse has ulcers or hind gut problems. Tight/painful muscles lead to issues elsewhere. For mine it was the RH fetlock that became locked and needed the chiro to release it. He is still unbalanced on the RH and wears the lateral side. (barefoot)
Mine completely changed shape and the way he held himself when I went down the PSSM management route. There are a lot of knock on problems from PSSM.

vastly unpredictable temperament, a real Jekyll and Hyde- placid one day to explosive the next with no consistent explanation

pain. They can be really spooky and unpredictable. I found equishure to be really helpful for this but of course your pain could be coming from something completely different,

Oct/Nov is a really bad time for PSSM.

 

[Hackback]

Just to add, my horse doesn't have PSSM as far as I know but did have strange muscle issues, which involved extreme stiffness sometimes after hard work, especially in cold weather or if I washed him down in cold water after work. He had a couple of what looked like tying up episodes but the vet took bloods and there were no raised enzymes so not tying up. She still treated him for tying up and he was back to normal in a couple of days. It was always during the winter months when he suffered - with other minor ailments as well - and it was obvious that when the grass came through in Spring he bloomed and was a different horse. The vet said maybe I should accept that he was just a 'summer horse'.

I discovered Vitamin E when I was looking for ways of boosting his immune system (he also has Cushings but his muscle issues pre-date the Cushings diagnosis, and had a bad skin infection that wouldn't clear up). When I read about Vitamin E so many things fell into place - the whole 'summer horse' thing where he was well when on the grass and getting a good supply of Vitamin E and poor in winter when he was eating mainly hay/haylage and the muscle issues. I started him on it and could hardly believe the difference, it has been a game changer for us. The skin condition cleared up (after approx. £1500 of vet bills, different antibiotics, steroids, skin scrapings etc) and he regained his bounce and condition. No more tying up type issues. This is the third winter he's been on it and still looking well. I reduce it when the grass comes through and when he's on good grazing I stop it altogether.

I use Nano-E as it's both natural and water soluble so allegedly more bio-available than oil based types. More importantly my horse will eat it, which is just as well as it's quite expensive. We've settled on 2000 iu a day, but double or treble the dose before hard work, like hunting. Basically I don't think my horse has a 'condition' as such, I just think he doesn't store Vitamin E particularly well and needs an artificial source when he isn't getting it from the grass.

Good luck finding out what's going on with your horse, it sounds pretty complicated but maybe there is a root cause with a simple solution. Fingers crossed for you.

 

[paddy555]

Just to add, my horse doesn't have PSSM as far as I know but did have strange muscle issues, which involved extreme stiffness sometimes after hard work, especially in cold weather or if I washed him down in cold water after work. He had a couple of what looked like tying up episodes but the vet took bloods and there were no raised enzymes so not tying up. She still treated him for tying up and he was back to normal in a couple of days. It was always during the winter months when he suffered - with other minor ailments as well - and it was obvious that when the grass came through in Spring he bloomed and was a different horse. The vet said maybe I should accept that he was just a 'summer horse'.

I discovered Vitamin E when I was looking for ways of boosting his immune system (he also has Cushings but his muscle issues pre-date the Cushings diagnosis, and had a bad skin infection that wouldn't clear up). When I read about Vitamin E so many things fell into place - the whole 'summer horse' thing where he was well when on the grass and getting a good supply of Vitamin E and poor in winter when he was eating mainly hay/haylage and the muscle issues. I started him on it and could hardly believe the difference, it has been a game changer for us. The skin condition cleared up (after approx. £1500 of vet bills, different antibiotics, steroids, skin scrapings etc) and he regained his bounce and condition. No more tying up type issues. This is the third winter he's been on it and still looking well. I reduce it when the grass comes through and when he's on good grazing I stop it altogether.

I use Nano-E as it's both natural and water soluble so allegedly more bio-available than oil based types. More importantly my horse will eat it, which is just as well as it's quite expensive. We've settled on 2000 iu a day, but double or treble the dose before hard work, like hunting. Basically I don't think my horse has a 'condition' as such, I just think he doesn't store Vitamin E particularly well and needs an artificial source when he isn't getting it from the grass.

Good luck finding out what's going on with your horse, it sounds pretty complicated but maybe there is a root cause with a simple solution. Fingers crossed for you.

Very interesting. does your horse have what used to be called vit E deficient myopathy but I see Michigan state website has now changed that to vit E responsive myopathy. I suspect some of the problem horses we are hearing about may well have.

Another problem with vit e and grass is that as soon as the grass grows and vit E becomes more plentiful half of us grab our horses off the grass in case of lami. so again they get some restriction of vit e.

 

[Melody Grey]

Thankyou Paddy555- really thorough reply and some good food for thought.....upping the rugging and ordering a type 1 test are on the agenda for today!

 

[Melody Grey]

Sorry if I've got things round my neck- PSSM is a new idea for me here.....Is it advisable to try vitamin E without a diagnosis? Just wondering whether to order some?

 

[paddy555]

Sorry if I've got things round my neck- PSSM is a new idea for me here.....Is it advisable to try vitamin E without a diagnosis? Just wondering whether to order some?

if you are thinking along the lines of PSSM then vit e is vital. It is the first course of action. Either test levels and then order or just order and "test" levels by the results you get which should be quick. say 2 weeks max. Mine showed changes in days, within a week I had a different horse. I guess there are many similar to Hackback's horse.

Getting a diagnosis is not easy. PSSM1 is easy. PSSM2 is either muscle biopsy by vet or the equiseq PSSM2 test cost £260. That test is not peer reviewed and there are questions as to how accurate it is. From what I understand it misses some. (we had discussions on this on a thread about 2months ago)
At the end of the day you may well not get a definitive answer and it may be that your changed management produces results and resolves your horse and you can draw your own conclusions. One important thing is how it produces so many knock on effects. You know if your own back hurts the problem comes out in your ankle/knee or anywhere else as you carry yourself so badly and you are in pain so your guts maybe hurt or you are stressed etc etc.

I'm afraid vet help with this is not aways easy. Many know little about it.

 

[SEL]

Sorry if I've got things round my neck- PSSM is a new idea for me here.....Is it advisable to try vitamin E without a diagnosis? Just wondering whether to order some?

It won't harm the horse to try without diagnosis and as Hackback has said above there are plenty of horses that have responded to vitamin E even when they are clear of the PSSM genes. I feed it over winter to my non PSSM pony. It may, however, harm your pocket due to the price!

In your shoes I'd get some in and start your horse on it. I use Forage Plus because it comes as a powder and is easier for my management. Equimins comes as an oil and people seem to love or hate it.

Increasing oil (if your horse is positive for type 1) has supporters amongst some vets and others hate the idea. My symptomatic mare has been out of work with another injury this year and because she's a ridiculous good doer I took oil out of her diet. In work she needs about 100ml a day for energy and without it shes as flat as a pancake. I am about to start adding a little back in because even in her walk work right now its beginning to feel like I'm riding through treacle. She's not particularly nice to be around and her muscles are getting tight. For her that's a very typical winter presentation sadly.

 

[quizzie]

Re Vitamin E...I would definitely test first.

Mine was very deficient, but despite 10000iu natural Vit E, his dire levels did not budge an inch over 6-8 weeks, but after 3 weeks on Nano-E his level has doubled ( only just getting near normal, but distinct improvement!)

It seems some horses cannot remove the acetate attached to the other forms, but need the miscellised water soluble version.

 

[paddy555]

It may, however, harm your pocket due to the price!

I have one PSSM on it and 3 others on smaller doses. My poor pockets ceased to exist long ago.