PSSM Help!

[piglet2001]

So I have found my mum a mid teens happy hacker to mooch around on, she is a wonderful kind and sensible mare who I believe will be the perfect confidence giver. She has slightly arthritic hocks and suspected PSSM.

I am totally comfortable dealing with the hocks but I have never had experience with PSSM. Her current owner feeds a high oil diet of Alfa A Oil and micronised linseed, but I have read about alcar and vitamin e oil?

We are really looking forward to enjoying this lovely mare but I would like to arm my self with knowledge of what to feed. Her weight is 630kg if this helps?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Dwyran_gold]

I know there’s type 1 and type 2 and It can sometimes be managed with set diet and regular exercise. That’s all I know I’m afraid. Might be worth talking to a vet. X

 

[SEL]

Are you buying? Could you test for type 1 at Animal Genetics first? It requires hair strands, about £35 & takes around 9 days for results. You'll know what you are dealing with then.

It's difficult because PSSM is a tricky disease with some horses easy to manage and others barely rideable. Alcar did nothing for either or mine but the mare gets 6000iU of vitamin E a day - & that gets expensive! She's also on restricted grazing and soaked hay so quite hard work.

What sort of grazing and work is the mare getting right now?

 

[piglet2001]

Thank you both for your reply’s.

So a bit more information. She is an ID X and just coming on loan, so no investment as such and can always be returned to owner if it doesn’t work out. The owner previously used her as a hunter, she has always been relaxed but she was just getting a bit more stiff and lethargic, investigations found the changes to her hocks but not anything else of any significance. The hocks have been treated.
Thanks

 

[Dwyran_gold]

Thank you both for your reply’s.

So a bit more information. She is an ID X and just coming on loan, so no investment as such and can always be returned to owner if it doesn’t work out. The owner previously used her as a hunter, she has always been relaxed but she was just getting a bit more stiff and lethargic, investigations found the changes to her hocks but not anything else of any significance. The hocks have been treated.
Thanks

from what I recall (would be worth a google) I think warmbloods are more prone to type 2 which is harder to manage. It’s just what I’ve heard not from experience. X

 

[SEL]

Thank you both for your reply’s.

So a bit more information. She is an ID X and just coming on loan, so no investment as such and can always be returned to owner if it doesn’t work out. The owner previously used her as a hunter, she has always been relaxed but she was just getting a bit more stiff and lethargic, investigations found the changes to her hocks but not anything else of any significance. The hocks have been treated.
Thanks

Loan is good. Irish drafts can carry type 1 or type 2 but broadly keep the sugar / starch low (much like a laminitic) and in regular exercise. Oil based feed if you need more energy.

My mare with pssm has arthritic hocks and I've found we can get in a vicious circle at times. Hocks get sore, so she tenses , so muscles get sore, so hocks get worse... I have a stash of danilon and she has regular bodywork. Despite being fat she is not allowed to shiver!

 

[rextherobber]

There is a really helpful Facebook group PSSM UK

 

[catembi]

Yes, go on the PSSM FB group. The only trouble is (as I've found), that whatever works for one horse seems to have the opposite effect in another horse. Mine has tested positive for type 1 and 2. He is n/p1, n/p4 & px/px. The complication is that the px/px seems to need opposite treatment from the others. I just cannot sort through the minefield of what to do and not do, so for now he is 'retired' even though he's only 6, and I am riding a companion pony while I have a think.

Sorry, that has turned into a rant, but what I meant to convey is that it's not as simple as 'do x', because someone else will say, 'no, x made my horse worse...do y'. So don't be disheartened or surprised if you don't find a quick & easy answer.

If you test, then you will know what you're looking at. Type 1 is £30. Type 2 - I had to send the hair sample to Germany & it was £230-ish.

 

[Mahoganybay]

I consulted a independent equine nutritionist, sending a full history including photos of my mare. She suspects PSSM2, as does my physio ?

I started her as advised on a diet and exercise regime for a PSSM2 horse and have sent off a hair sample to CAG in Germany. Just awaiting results.

Not sure what results I want really, she is doing really well on the diet/exercise but she has had some mechanical lameness issues that have been resolved too so it may be a coincidence ?‍

Whatever the results, she looks and feels super at the moment however I am dreading winter as that is when she stiffens and shows symptoms.

I have the physio back out on the 16.7.20 and I should have my CAG results by then and we can make a plan ?

 

[paddy555]

?‍

Whatever the results, she looks and feels super at the moment however I am dreading winter as that is when she stiffens and shows symptoms.

it is very important to start early for winter. Lots of posts start appearing on the various PSSM groups around mid Oct, my horse is stiff, worse etc etc. Mid Oct in England depends on if we have an Indian summer and when Autumn starts. It can be Nov some years.
I used to get this and for several years wondered what is it about October and one year he ended up in horse hospital because of it. That was before we realised his problem..
Now I get the rugs on him early. The others may still be unrugged but mine is already in his winter rugs. By this regime we have sailed through the last few winters. By the end of Oct he is in a 450g wug which he stays in until April. Beg of Oct he is rugged, it works better if you can preempt the problem

 

[Mahoganybay]

it is very important to start early for winter. Lots of posts start appearing on the various PSSM groups around mid Oct, my horse is stiff, worse etc etc. Mid Oct in England depends on if we have an Indian summer and when Autumn starts. It can be Nov some years.
I used to get this and for several years wondered what is it about October and one year he ended up in horse hospital because of it. That was before we realised his problem..
Now I get the rugs on him early. The others may still be unrugged but mine is already in his winter rugs. By this regime we have sailed through the last few winters. By the end of Oct he is in a 450g wug which he stays in until April. Beg of Oct he is rugged, it works better if you can preempt the problem

Yes, I’m already armed with the rugs and will be starting early. ?

 

[dorsetladette]

So I have found my mum a mid teens happy hacker to mooch around on, she is a wonderful kind and sensible mare who I believe will be the perfect confidence giver. She has slightly arthritic hocks and suspected PSSM.

I am totally comfortable dealing with the hocks but I have never had experience with PSSM. Her current owner feeds a high oil diet of Alfa A Oil and micronised linseed, but I have read about alcar and vitamin e oil?

We are really looking forward to enjoying this lovely mare but I would like to arm my self with knowledge of what to feed. Her weight is 630kg if this helps?

Thank you in advance.

I don't know anything about PSSM I'm afraid, but in your position I would be keeping the horse on the same diet and exercise routine as the current owner and picking her brains about everything I could think of. When to rug/what to do if/I've noticed X have you/what did you do?

As owner is only loaning and not selling I'd think they want to monitor her and make sure she is happy and healthy. Take advantage of that and the knowledge the owner will already have. Will probably save a few vet bills along the way too.

hope you have lots of fun with your new friend.

 

[indie1282]

it is very important to start early for winter. Lots of posts start appearing on the various PSSM groups around mid Oct, my horse is stiff, worse etc etc. Mid Oct in England depends on if we have an Indian summer and when Autumn starts. It can be Nov some years.
I used to get this and for several years wondered what is it about October and one year he ended up in horse hospital because of it. That was before we realised his problem..
Now I get the rugs on him early. The others may still be unrugged but mine is already in his winter rugs. By this regime we have sailed through the last few winters. By the end of Oct he is in a 450g wug which he stays in until April. Beg of Oct he is rugged, it works better if you can preempt the problem

Can i ask a question about rugging a PSSM horse please? I get that they need to be kept warm especially over the quarters but what do you do if the horse is too hot in the thicker rug? i have a WB who i suspect has PSSM ( Sent off the test ) and he is to warm unclipped in the winter in a 50g. If fact last winter he happily lived out in a Rambo lightweight.

 

[paddy555]

Can i ask a question about rugging a PSSM horse please? I get that they need to be kept warm especially over the quarters but what do you do if the horse is too hot in the thicker rug? i have a WB who i suspect has PSSM ( Sent off the test ) and he is to warm unclipped in the winter in a 50g. If fact last winter he happily lived out in a Rambo lightweight.

Mine is trace clipped and I have never found him sweaty under his Rambo. I can't speak for anyone else's horse but warmth for mine is paramount. A while ago someone (not on here) asked me about rugging and I suggested a high degree of rugging. I was told the horse would get hot. He did however try it, found the horse didn't get over heated and it did work better.
Today my PSSM has a 100 g amigo on. Tonight, if it rains as promised, I will up that to maybe 250g. for total rain protection and warmth. He has a yard, track and wanders all night.
Possibly it depends on how you judge your horse is too warm. They may appear warm or too warm but if the muscles are uncomfortable they may not be warm enough to be comfortable especially if they have to work. I also use an exercise blanket riding and in winter a very thick heavyweight one.

I can only suggest when you get your test results if they are positive that you give it a go for a few nights and see if there is any improvement. It is total trial and error for these horses. What works for one doesn't for another.

Mahogany said earlier
I am dreading winter as that is when she stiffens and shows symptoms.

some of them do and I feel it is better they are slightly too warm (which is unfortunate) but without muscle pain which is far more serious. Muscle pain has a knock on effect all over. For mine hind gut is the first stopping point.

sorry probably not a very good explanation.

 

[indie1282]

Mine is trace clipped and I have never found him sweaty under his Rambo. I can't speak for anyone else's horse but warmth for mine is paramount. A while ago someone (not on here) asked me about rugging and I suggested a high degree of rugging. I was told the horse would get hot. He did however try it, found the horse didn't get over heated and it did work better.
Today my PSSM has a 100 g amigo on. Tonight, if it rains as promised, I will up that to maybe 250g. for total rain protection and warmth. He has a yard, track and wanders all night.
Possibly it depends on how you judge your horse is too warm. They may appear warm or too warm but if the muscles are uncomfortable they may not be warm enough to be comfortable especially if they have to work. I also use an exercise blanket riding and in winter a very thick heavyweight one.

I can only suggest when you get your test results if they are positive that you give it a go for a few nights and see if there is any improvement. It is total trial and error for these horses. What works for one doesn't for another.

Mahogany said earlier
I am dreading winter as that is when she stiffens and shows symptoms.

some of them do and I feel it is better they are slightly too warm (which is unfortunate) but without muscle pain which is far more serious. Muscle pain has a knock on effect all over. For mine hind gut is the first stopping point.

sorry probably not a very good explanation.

No that was a good explanation, thank you. Mine is not in work over the winter ( and not now currently ) but i cant imagine putting a 450g on him, especially if unclipped. I think if i put a 100g on him today he would not be happy!

I am always careful with rugging and i dont like to over rug but i like them to be warm under a rug but not hot if you know what i mean.

But then again i guess its horses for courses really. What suits one may not suit the other.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Can i ask a question about rugging a PSSM horse please? I get that they need to be kept warm especially over the quarters but what do you do if the horse is too hot in the thicker rug? i have a WB who i suspect has PSSM ( Sent off the test ) and he is to warm unclipped in the winter in a 50g. If fact last winter he happily lived out in a Rambo lightweight.

My PSSM mare does very well at this time of year in her Rambo summer series rug - it has 100g (with the optional liner) over the top line and mesh sides, so she doesn’t cook.

 

[paddy555]

I forgot to add that the rambo I use is a vari layer. These have been found to be good for PSSM as they have the extra thickness over the back where it is needed.

 

[indie1282]

I forgot to add that the rambo I use is a vari layer. These have been found to be good for PSSM as they have the extra thickness over the back where it is needed.

These rugs look perfect for PSSSM horses.

Can i ask a quick question about Vit E? I have been looking in to getting some and have found the below link to a product, based on the info i take it that its synthetic which means i would need to double up? So if i wanted to start on 10,000u i would need to feed 20gs? Also i thought that there is Vit E in grass, especially this time of year. We do have good grazing at my yard, it's old meadow grass and it isn't ever fertilised.

http://thehealthyhorsecompany.co.uk/vitamin-e-oil/

 

[ycbm]

These rugs look perfect for PSSSM horses.

Can i ask a quick question about Vit E? I have been looking in to getting some and have found the below link to a product, based on the info i take it that its synthetic which means i would need to double up? So if i wanted to start on 10,000u i would need to feed 20gs? Also i thought that there is Vit E in grass, especially this time of year. We do have good grazing at my yard, it's old meadow grass and it isn't ever fertilised.

http://thehealthyhorsecompany.co.uk/vitamin-e-oil/

One gram of that gives 500iu

But it is synthetic, only 250iu of that is usable by the horse.

So to give 10,000iu you would have to feed 40 grams, and the cheapest way to feed that level of iu as powder is Forageplus natural, and the cheapest way of all is Equimins oil.

Note that powders vary in strength and are not all the same iu per gram. Forageplus, for example, had a lot more per gram than Progressive Earth last time i checked.

For price comparisons you need to compare cost per 1000iu not cost per gram.

.

 

[paddy555]

One gram of that gives 500iu

But it is synthetic, only 250iu of that is usable by the horse.

So to give 10,000iu you would have to feed 40 grams, and the cheapest way to feed that level of iu as powder is Forageplus natural, and the cheapest way of all is Equimins oil.

Note that powders vary in strength and are not all the same iu per gram. Forageplus, for example, had a lot more per gram than Progressive Earth last time i checked.

For price comparisons you need to compare cost per 1000iu not cost per gram.

.

thanks you saved me a job!!! the healthy horse product is very expensive for PSSM horses where you need to feed a lot.

we have been around the vit E' s many times trying to find the best products and the best prices. Basically those are equimins and Forage plus. We also know that they give results.

FP is a powder and a lot of people like a powder for the convenience.
I use equimins oil. (there were no other choices when I started vit e)

I find the oil easy to use but some people don't like it. I decant the oil into a squeezy tomato sauce bottle, (wide neck so easy to pour in and squeezy so easy to get out )
then I put a piece of bread onto gram scales and squeeze out 10 grams (10000iu) fold bread and the horse loves it.
I feed it that way because it is expensive and I don't want wastage.

yes there is vit e in grass at this time of the year but I think most people still supplement for PSSM in the summer on top of the grass. Some people cut down supplementing a little for the summer and increase for the winter.

I think it is best to go straight onto 10000iu even at this time of the year because you are looking to see if there is a reaction to vit E.

Usually if vit e is going to work you can expect a quick reaction. For mine it was only around 36 hours when I started to wonder if he had become nicer. (he was nasty as he was in muscle pain) within 3 days OH was asking if he was different. Within a week he was very different. I think for most horses you would expect to see a result within a couple of weeks.
It may be a case of getting yours stabilised on vit E and then experimenting as to whether you can reduce the quantity in the summer

 

[indie1282]

thanks you saved me a job!!! the healthy horse product is very expensive for PSSM horses where you need to feed a lot.

we have been around the vit E' s many times trying to find the best products and the best prices. Basically those are equimins and Forage plus. We also know that they give results.

FP is a powder and a lot of people like a powder for the convenience.
I use equimins oil. (there were no other choices when I started vit e)

I find the oil easy to use but some people don't like it. I decant the oil into a squeezy tomato sauce bottle, (wide neck so easy to pour in and squeezy so easy to get out )
then I put a piece of bread onto gram scales and squeeze out 10 grams (10000iu) fold bread and the horse loves it.
I feed it that way because it is expensive and I don't want wastage.

yes there is vit e in grass at this time of the year but I think most people still supplement for PSSM in the summer on top of the grass. Some people cut down supplementing a little for the summer and increase for the winter.

I think it is best to go straight onto 10000iu even at this time of the year because you are looking to see if there is a reaction to vit E.

Usually if vit e is going to work you can expect a quick reaction. For mine it was only around 36 hours when I started to wonder if he had become nicer. (he was nasty as he was in muscle pain) within 3 days OH was asking if he was different. Within a week he was very different. I think for most horses you would expect to see a result within a couple of weeks.
It may be a case of getting yours stabilised on vit E and then experimenting as to whether you can reduce the quantity in the summer

Thank you for the detailed reply! And thank you YCBM ( sorry I don't know how to multi-quote) Sorry for the questions.

I will have a look at Equimins Vit E then. I am waiting to be approved to the PSSM group on FB as I have a couple of video i took tonight where I think there's hard/sore muscles but don't want to bother anyone too much on this thread! ?

 

[paddy555]

Thank you for the detailed reply! And thank you YCBM ( sorry I don't know how to multi-quote) Sorry for the questions.

I will have a look at Equimins Vit E then. I am waiting to be approved to the PSSM group on FB as I have a couple of video i took tonight where I think there's hard/sore muscles but don't want to bother anyone too much on this thread! ?

you're welcome. Try standing by the side of the hind quarters and putting both hands on the quarters can you wobble them? nice and soft and wobbly. is picking the hind legs up easy? I remember one PSSM WB where you couldn't pick the feet up to trim, they had to stay just above the ground. Is he happy when you go around the back end prodding and poking as you go. At his worst mine double barrelled me to the ground and I only picked his foot up. Starting from the top run your hand down as far as the hock massaging the muscles as you go down the leg. Does he enjoy it? Nice and soft?
After a few days on high dose vit E try it all again. Any change? Better wobbling?

 

[shortstuff99]

As the horses is on loan I probably wouldn't bother testing for the PSSM and just keep her as the owner has been doing if it is working well. A quick note on the genetic test for PSSM 2, is that only around 50% or less confirmed (with a biopsy) horses show the genetic mutations that are tested for which means even if she came back negative wouldnt mean she doesn't have it (and having the mutations doesn't necessarily mean they will present either) so it is a tricky test.

 

[paddy555]

just in case people haven't found them the FB groups are

"managing PSSM, RER and other muscle disease"
"PSSM UK"
"PSSM forum"

 

[piglet2001]

I don't know anything about PSSM I'm afraid, but in your position I would be keeping the horse on the same diet and exercise routine as the current owner and picking her brains about everything I could think of. When to rug/what to do if/I've noticed X have you/what did you do?

As owner is only loaning and not selling I'd think they want to monitor her and make sure she is happy and healthy. Take advantage of that and the knowledge the owner will already have. Will probably save a few vet bills along the way too.

hope you have lots of fun with your new friend.

Thank you so much everyone for all your reply’s. She is a friend of a very good friends horse ready to step down a level. They just mentioned it in passing as a physio had mentioned it might be a possibility to them.

They are lovely caring owners but quite old school in that normally their retired hunters have a summer at grass before making that final journey to kennels. They have not looked into the pssm any further, it was just by chance she is on a high oil diet.

To be honest they trust me and know that we will do right by the mare. I am not expecting them to be overly involved.

I have ordered some vitamin e oil from equimins. So my next question is how many mls would you give a day to a 630kg mare.

Finally what symptoms do you expect for each type and how does the treatment differ for each type.

Thank you once again.

 

[indie1282]

you're welcome. Try standing by the side of the hind quarters and putting both hands on the quarters can you wobble them? nice and soft and wobbly. is picking the hind legs up easy? I remember one PSSM WB where you couldn't pick the feet up to trim, they had to stay just above the ground. Is he happy when you go around the back end prodding and poking as you go. At his worst mine double barrelled me to the ground and I only picked his foot up. Starting from the top run your hand down as far as the hock massaging the muscles as you go down the leg. Does he enjoy it? Nice and soft?
After a few days on high dose vit E try it all again. Any change? Better wobbling?

I wouldn't say his bum was wobbly really. He definitely doesn't like his back feet picked up but he will let me do it and will stand for the farrier. He also moved away from any pressure tonight on both his shoulders and quarters. He was out naked in the rain but didn't feel cold, I have turned him out in a lightweight but he feels too warm to me so I'm slightly panicking as although its raining its still about 15° overnight!!

Would you mind looking at the video if I PM'd you?

 

[paddy555]

Thank you so much everyone for all your reply’s. She is a friend of a very good friends horse ready to step down a level. They just mentioned it in passing as a physio had mentioned it might be a possibility to them.

They are lovely caring owners but quite old school in that normally their retired hunters have a summer at grass before making that final journey to kennels. They have not looked into the pssm any further, it was just by chance she is on a high oil diet.

To be honest they trust me and know that we will do right by the mare. I am not expecting them to be overly involved.

I have ordered some vitamin e oil from equimins. So my next question is how many mls would you give a day to a 630kg mare.

Finally what symptoms do you expect for each type and how does the treatment differ for each type.

Thank you once again.

1ml = 1000iu

I would start any horse on 10ml ie 10000iu. which could then be reduced if necessary.
I am not sure if your horse has PSSM or why the owner thinks it may have. Or if you could be dealing with PSSM1 or PSSM2.

If you are on FB I would join the first group I suggested in post 24 and look in the files section. (don't worry too much about the horror stories of the posts)
You will find type 1 and type 2 diets.

Also various explanations of each type and lots more. Hopefully you will then be able to relate your mare to some of the explanations and have more idea as to where you are going.

It is difficult to comment without more info. but I would carry on with exactly what the old owner was doing and see if your horse has problems and what they are. Have a good poke around the back end as I suggested to indie and see if there is tightness then see if there is improvement with vit E. See if her performance improves.

PSSM management is basically:-
warmth/rugs
constant movement (not stabled)
frequent exercise
vit E and people usually add salt/magox and possibly a supplement
and then diet depending on which type you are dealing with. Low sugar'starch, For PSSM 2 more protein/tri aminos for PSSM 1 fats or alcar.

but they are all different and it is trial and error to see what works.

 

[paddy555]

I wouldn't say his bum was wobbly really. He definitely doesn't like his back feet picked up but he will let me do it and will stand for the farrier. He also moved away from any pressure tonight on both his shoulders and quarters. He was out naked in the rain but didn't feel cold, I have turned him out in a lightweight but he feels too warm to me so I'm slightly panicking as although its raining its still about 15° overnight!!

Would you mind looking at the video if I PM'd you?

no problem if you want to PM.

IF he is PSSM you will have to experiment with rugs. It will become obvious if he needs warmth and protection from the rain that if rugged he will perform much better. For some it may make no difference. Trial and error is the only thing that works to see what sort your horse is. If you leave the rugs off and he is stiff , grouchy, not keen to perform you could try rugging. If you rug well and he is supple, moves well and is very happy you will have your answer. Whatever you do with PSSM only do 1 thing at once to evaluate it.

I was just looking at an article on muscle biopsy by Steph Valberg and noticed this bit about warmbloods. I don't know if any of it relates to you.

Warmbloods with type 2 PSSM have painful firm back and hindquarter muscles, reluctance to collect and engage the hindquarters, poor rounding over fences, gait abnormalities, and slow onset of atrophy especially when out of work. The mean age of onset of clinical signs in Warmbloods is between 8 and 11 years of age with the median CK and AST activity being 323 and 331U/L, respectively.

 

[Mahoganybay]

I was just looking at an article on muscle biopsy by Steph Valberg and noticed this bit about warmbloods. I don't know if any of it relates to you.

Warmbloods with type 2 PSSM have painful firm back and hindquarter muscles, reluctance to collect and engage the hindquarters, poor rounding over fences, gait abnormalities, and slow onset of atrophy especially when out of work. The mean age of onset of clinical signs in Warmbloods is between 8 and 11 years of age with the median CK and AST activity being 323 and 331U/L, respectively.

My mare is tight in her middle back, loin and hamstrings. Has had bilateral hind limb lameness and muscle atrophy on her top line when out of work due to being sore.

Shes a 10 year old Warmblood ??

Diet and exercise seems to be working well ??

 

[paddy555]

I was just looking at an article on muscle biopsy by Steph Valberg and noticed this bit about warmbloods. I don't know if any of it relates to you.

Warmbloods with type 2 PSSM have painful firm back and hindquarter muscles, reluctance to collect and engage the hindquarters, poor rounding over fences, gait abnormalities, and slow onset of atrophy especially when out of work. The mean age of onset of clinical signs in Warmbloods is between 8 and 11 years of age with the median CK and AST activity being 323 and 331U/L, respectively.

My mare is tight in her middle back, loin and hamstrings. Has had bilateral hind limb lameness and muscle atrophy on her top line when out of work due to being sore.

Shes a 10 year old Warmblood ??

Diet and exercise seems to be working well ??

so good if you are finding the right management regime for her. It would be interesting to know your test results idc.