PSSM people, I need your advice please!

Ellietotz

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Morning!

I thought I'd start *another* thread based on this so it's easier to draw attention on this subject.

After the whirlwind of problems I've had with my mare, I really really hope I might have my answer to it all.

A long time a go, I tested her for PSSM type 1 which came back negative and I really don't know why I didn't think of it sooner that it could potentially be type 2 (thanks @Leo Walker for thinking of it!). A bottle of vitamin E oil would have been massively cheaper to try first but that's another story all together!

However, what I need now is advice on managing it. I know it'll be quite dependent on what her needs are as we go further down the line and what works/doesn't work but I need a brief idea first please!

Feed regime, this is what I am currently doing:

- Handful of Dengie Alfa A Molasses Free, started yesterday
- 10000iu of Equimins Vitamin E Oil, started yesterday (suggestions on how to measure it out and pour it onto the feed without it taking 4 years to come out of the cup would be fantastic)
- Coopers Gut Support (vet recommended it for hind gut, been on it for two weeks, no improvement noticed yet)
- Topspec Calmer (started just over a week a go in hope it'll stop her being such a stresshead, not sure there has been much difference yet)

Do I need a vit and min balancer? I was using Equimins balancer before. I have also been advised by some other helpful HHOers to start with the salt again and I have a big tub of sea salt I haven't used.

Management:

- Lives out 24/7, average pasture, currently getting hay as well.

I would be so grateful for any advice on what to do and what not to do. I have no experience with dealing with this and I want to make sure I get it right.

Thank you!
 

Casey76

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Type 2 are all muscle wasting diseases, so the aim of the game is to increase protein. Most type 2s benefit from protein supplements (whey, pea, hemp etc) or specific amino acids (Lysine, Methionine, threonine).

There is a hair test available for a type 2 myopathy panel via CAG in Germany, (no vet needed), though it is fairly expensive.
 

SEL

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^^^ what Casey said.

I think Progressive Earth are selling something with the same make-up as Tri Amino now which has those amino acids in it. Is the Topspec calmer mainly magnesium?

I don't like the Equimins oil because its messy but I know people who decant it into a clean squeezy ketchup bottle and use it from there. If you've seen no difference after 2 weeks on the high dosage then just drop it back to maintenance dose, because you'll know then it isn't a vitamin E deficiency.
 

Ellietotz

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^^^ what Casey said.

I think Progressive Earth are selling something with the same make-up as Tri Amino now which has those amino acids in it. Is the Topspec calmer mainly magnesium?

I don't like the Equimins oil because its messy but I know people who decant it into a clean squeezy ketchup bottle and use it from there. If you've seen no difference after 2 weeks on the high dosage then just drop it back to maintenance dose, because you'll know then it isn't a vitamin E deficiency.

The Topspec Calmer is Tryptophan mainly. Magnesium calmers didn't work on her. Just looking at the Progressive Earth and you're right, there is Pro 3 Amino which has all three in. Are they essential for this condition then?

I heard about the ketchup bottle technique but how do you know how much you are using?
 

PapaverFollis

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Re. Vitamin E oil.

Squeezy bottle (Bbq sauce as it happens).
Measuring spoon from a kitchen set.
Squeeze into measuring spoon.
Tip up onto soaked speedibeet and leave for a few mins while faffing with The Other Supplements.
Lift spoon and squish into clean bit of beet. Squish around a bit.
Take half handful of top chop zero and use to wipe spoon off, chucking top chop into feed as you go. And stir in.

Voila.

Best done at home at room temperature. The oil gets very sloooooow at the yard.
 

paddy555

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I use equimins oil for mine simply because I know it works. I wouldn't try any other make for that reason. That is to say other makes may be equally as good. I use the ketchup bottle method. I decant from the 1 litre bottle into the wide necked ketchup bottle (heinz in my case the one that costs around £1.20), put a piece of bread on the gram scales, weight out X grams (in your case 10 grams) , fold bread and apply to horse's mouth and that is it. No washing and the oil is perfectly under control at all times. I keep mine in the kitchen and horse lives outside the kitchen door so very easy for me. I don't mix it in feed. It is far too expensive to risk wasting even minute drop. I know every tiny bit has gone down using bread (or anything else the horse likes)

My regime (which is successful and has completely turned the horse around) is

alfalfa pellets
copra
micro linseed
salt
equimins supplement
8000iu vit e oil
equishure 2 scoops per day
hay

the equishure is vital for mine to stop any stress or spookiness.

he spends the day in the field and nights in a yard where he can wander. He doesn't get shut in. He is always rugged with a very heavy rug ie 450g from Oct - Mar. Exercise isn't the key for him although he does get ridden most days. Rugging is what he needs. Time off for bad weather, illness etc isn't a problem. In the summer he was out 24/7 except for periods when he was in for the flies and we stopped riding him due to the heat wave and horrendous flies. I dreaded the first time he was ridden again but no problems. He was quite normal.

magnesium made no difference to him. The supplement has selenium in it. I would increase the protein feed in your case,( that is why I use alfalfa pellets, linseed and copra) ditch the topspec and give a good all round balancer.
 

Ellietotz

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I use equimins oil for mine simply because I know it works. I wouldn't try any other make for that reason. That is to say other makes may be equally as good. I use the ketchup bottle method. I decant from the 1 litre bottle into the wide necked ketchup bottle (heinz in my case the one that costs around £1.20), put a piece of bread on the gram scales, weight out X grams (in your case 10 grams) , fold bread and apply to horse's mouth and that is it. No washing and the oil is perfectly under control at all times. I keep mine in the kitchen and horse lives outside the kitchen door so very easy for me. I don't mix it in feed. It is far too expensive to risk wasting even minute drop. I know every tiny bit has gone down using bread (or anything else the horse likes)

My regime (which is successful and has completely turned the horse around) is

alfalfa pellets
copra
micro linseed
salt
equimins supplement
8000iu vit e oil
equishure 2 scoops per day
hay

the equishure is vital for mine to stop any stress or spookiness.

he spends the day in the field and nights in a yard where he can wander. He doesn't get shut in. He is always rugged with a very heavy rug ie 450g from Oct - Mar. Exercise isn't the key for him although he does get ridden most days. Rugging is what he needs. Time off for bad weather, illness etc isn't a problem. In the summer he was out 24/7 except for periods when he was in for the flies and we stopped riding him due to the heat wave and horrendous flies. I dreaded the first time he was ridden again but no problems. He was quite normal.

magnesium made no difference to him. The supplement has selenium in it. I would increase the protein feed in your case,( that is why I use alfalfa pellets, linseed and copra) ditch the topspec and give a good all round balancer.

How lovely to have your horse so close to home!

The Dengie Alfa A Molasses free was slightly higher in protein so I was hoping this would work but for extra protein, should I get a protein supplement or another feed like copra? For a balancer, is Equimins Complete okay?
 

paddy555

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How lovely to have your horse so close to home!

The Dengie Alfa A Molasses free was slightly higher in protein so I was hoping this would work but for extra protein, should I get a protein supplement or another feed like copra? For a balancer, is Equimins Complete okay?


yes I am very lucky. Unfortunately he gets even closer to home when he escapes into the house!

it is described on their website as "advance concentrate complete powder" or pellets if you prefer. I would go for that one as a good general supp.

I would add copra and micro linseed. I use dengie pellets rather tha alfa A because I have heard (and experienced) some barefoot horses may have a problem with the alfl A yet many are fine on the pellets. No one has really come up with a reason why, maybe the processing? no idea. Anyway I would increase to these feeds. (there may be equally good ones I just know these work so would be a good starting point to try and see if PSSM 2 is what you are looking at.)

I read some of your earlier threads re vet etc. Mine cost me over 2k in a horse hospital who never mentioned PSSM. He later cost me a fair amount more when he tied up. That vet had also no knowledge of PSSM. I think they were just grateful I didn't ask them how to manage it!

I got results from vit e within 36 hours. Horse was just a little nicer. After 3 days OH kept asking if horse was different somehow. So if it works it is quick. Equishure also works quickly if need to support the gut. You may need it or may not.
 

Slightlyconfused

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Re. Vitamin E oil.

Squeezy bottle (Bbq sauce as it happens).
Measuring spoon from a kitchen set.
Squeeze into measuring spoon.
Tip up onto soaked speedibeet and leave for a few mins while faffing with The Other Supplements.
Lift spoon and squish into clean bit of beet. Squish around a bit.
Take half handful of top chop zero and use to wipe spoon off, chucking top chop into feed as you go. And stir in.

Voila.

Best done at home at room temperature. The oil gets very sloooooow at the yard.


Oohh that is better than my dolop and hope for the best way
 

Slightlyconfused

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Mine is on vit e
Tb herbal chaff
Tb or dengie grass pellets soaked
Mycosorb +

He cant have alfa

Adlib hay or hayledge

He is a fussy eater and that i have found helps.

Organic salt is also a good thing to try.
One of mine has it and i noticed a difference in him so will start the other one on it.

One thing is he needs to keep warm.
If he gets cold he gets stiff and grumpy.
I dont full clip him he has his back and hind quarters left on for warmth.
 

SEL

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I read some of your earlier threads re vet etc. Mine cost me over 2k in a horse hospital who never mentioned PSSM. He later cost me a fair amount more when he tied up. That vet had also no knowledge of PSSM. I think they were just grateful I didn't ask them how to manage it!

I got results from vit e within 36 hours. Horse was just a little nicer. After 3 days OH kept asking if horse was different somehow. So if it works it is quick. Equishure also works quickly if need to support the gut. You may need it or may not.


Vet knowledge on PSSM is really lacking. I know when they are our own horses we have a lot more time to research, but some of the statements I've had made to me by vets have been shocking. Given mine is P1 by genetic test being told after a blood test 'better make sure there are no sycamore trees around because that is probably what's causing her to tie-up' didn't fill me with confidence in that vet! Many of them also don't seem to believe in supplementing vitamin E despite knowing that mine is on restricted grazing because sugar levels are a major problem for her - and if she isn't getting it from grass then she's only going to get it if I give it to her.

Ellie - if you don't get any response to the vitamin E in a couple of weeks then back off the dosage. There is some speculation that too much vitamin E can interfere with the absorption of vitamin A (although minimal sciency stuff), so only feed it if you see a benefit. To be honest that decision will probably be driven by money as well given the price of the stuff!!
 

Ellietotz

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Mine is on vit e
Tb herbal chaff
Tb or dengie grass pellets soaked
Mycosorb +

He cant have alfa

Adlib hay or hayledge

He is a fussy eater and that i have found helps.

Organic salt is also a good thing to try.
One of mine has it and i noticed a difference in him so will start the other one on it.

One thing is he needs to keep warm.
If he gets cold he gets stiff and grumpy.
I dont full clip him he has his back and hind quarters left on for warmth.

What is organic salt? Probably being stupid!
 

PapaverFollis

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I think the smooshing in the speedibeet must be a vital part of the process! I also used to scrape out with a fibre nugget type treat before wiping with chaff but found that to be less necessary after I ran out if treats... found that smooshing and chaff wiping was sufficient.
 

Ellietotz

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I think the smooshing in the speedibeet must be a vital part of the process! I also used to scrape out with a fibre nugget type treat before wiping with chaff but found that to be less necessary after I ran out if treats... found that smooshing and chaff wiping was sufficient.

I can't even rinse it with water, it just runs over the oil and the oil doesn't move!
 

BBP

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(Can’t I just add to the confusion and say that there is also RER, not sure if that is at all likely? It’s not a glycogen storage or muscle wasting issue, it’s a calcium release issue. Vitamin e is still a key part of management though.)
 

Ellietotz

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(Can’t I just add to the confusion and say that there is also RER, not sure if that is at all likely? It’s not a glycogen storage or muscle wasting issue, it’s a calcium release issue. Vitamin e is still a key part of management though.)

Thanks for that! :p Going to frantically google now!
 

Ellietotz

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I've just bought 500ml of the oil and haven't started using it yet. I'm starting to wish I'd gone for the powder!

It's probably better if you do it at home where it's warmer! I'm going to use a big syringe and try to draw it out the top of a ketchup bottle instead!

Does anyone know if the powder is just as effective?
 

Pippity

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It's probably better if you do it at home where it's warmer! I'm going to use a big syringe and try to draw it out the top of a ketchup bottle instead!

Does anyone know if the powder is just as effective?

It's going to be the yard staff doing it... They're going to hate me! I like the syringe idea, though.

ETA: Aha! Despite calling itself Vitamin E Oil, the Forage Plus one is actually a powder.
 
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Ellietotz

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It's going to be the yard staff doing it... They're going to hate me! I like the syringe idea, though.

ETA: Aha! Despite calling itself Vitamin E Oil, the Forage Plus one is actually a powder.

And it's natural. Although not as cost effective as the actual oil if you are using it at 10000iu. I think the oil may be too thick for the syringe as well but I'll give it a go. I worked out the dosage/cost of both:

Forage Plus Vitamin E Oil Powder (natural) - 500g £37.98
(1 x 5ml scoop = 4g of powder/2000iu)

10000iu = 25ml scoop/20g

500g bag would last 25 days fed at 10000iu and costs £1.51 a day

Equimins Vitamin E Oil - 500ml £52.25
(1ml = 1000iu)

10000iu = 10ml

500ml bottle would last 50 days fed at 10000iu and costs £1.04 a day (1L bottle £99.50 would last 100 days and be 99p a day)

My next idea is to buy a load of little plastic disposable sauce pots with lids and fill them all up with a couple of nuts, take home and attempt to use the oil there instead so I can make up a week at a time. If I can't get used to it, I'm getting the powder next and I don't care if it costs more if it saves me the hassle of using the oil!

ETA: I have just found that The Healthy Horse Company do Vitamin E Oil powder but not sure if it's natural or not. The website says "DL-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate. 50% powdered vitamin E on a silica carrier.".
It's £26.99 for a 600g bag and holds the same amount as Forage Plus but that bag would last 30 days at 90p a day so even cheaper...
 
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SEL

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My next idea is to buy a load of little plastic disposable sauce pots with lids and fill them all up with a couple of nuts, take home and attempt to use the oil there instead so I can make up a week at a time. If I can't get used to it, I'm getting the powder next and I don't care if it costs more if it saves me the hassle of using the oil!

And that's exactly why I use the forage plus one!!! I started with Equimins and just got cross.

I put all my powders into baby food containers (from Amazon) and make up a week's worth in one go - or more if I'm going on holiday. Then whoever is feeding just needs to tip into the feed bucket and doesn't have to worry about adding in a scoop of 400 million different powders. Plus the containers can go in the dishwasher if they get really manky.
 

PapaverFollis

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The oil wouldn't behave in a syringe for me... it is a very cross making substance! I had to find peace with it for the cost reason and now though I could probably stretch to the powder I'm happy enough with the oil.

I think the weighing onto bread from a squeezy bottle is probably the best method.
 

Ellietotz

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The oil wouldn't behave in a syringe for me... it is a very cross making substance! I had to find peace with it for the cost reason and now though I could probably stretch to the powder I'm happy enough with the oil.

I think the weighing onto bread from a squeezy bottle is probably the best method.

That's quite a good idea. Stupid question though but is a piece of bread every single day good for them?


Update about The Healthy Horse Company powder, it is synthetic sadly.
 

PapaverFollis

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I don't know. I don't think I'd want to give The Beast a whole piece everyday but it must be working ok for paddy555!

I was thinking of using a smaller piece (maybe 5cm x 5cm ish... Just big enough to absorb the oil). You could have that in a baby food container thing, weigh the oil onto it. Chuck in the other powders ready to tip out. Maybe. I'm not sure I've explained that very well.

I'll stick to squeezing, smooshing and rubbing with chaff. Lol.
 

Casey76

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The oil really is a pita. It is very viscous, and it doesn’t want to behave. I used a syringe to take it from the main bottle to dinner, but the blimmin stuff gets everywhere, and makes *everything* sticky.

If you try to put it into individual pots, you are going to lose quite a bit in transfers, as it really doesn’t pour.

I struggled through one bottle of oil, then went back to,powder, as the increased price is worth the convenience (for me).
 
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