PSSM people, I need your advice please!

[Ellietotz]

The oil really is a pita. It is very viscous, and it doesn’t want to behave. I used a syringe to take it from the main bottle to dinner, but the blimmin stuff gets everywhere, and makes *everything* sticky.

If you try to put it into individual pots, you are going to lose quite a bit in transfers, as it really doesn’t pour.

I struggled through one bottle of oil, then went back to,powder, as the increased price is worth the convenience (for me).

Yeah, the pouring is the issue. It's fine coming out of the bottle but then it doesn't come off the spoon. It is like trying to pour syrup!

BUT I think I've found a way! I've poured some into a squeezy ketchup bottle (the nozzle isn't just an empty hole, this is a vital part of the process. It's got the silicon type layer so if you tipped it upside down without squeezing, it wouldn't go through the hole, I hope that makes sense!) I then got a big syringe, like ones from the feed store with a thicker nozzle, stuck it in the bottle nozz, tipped upside down and drew out the amount I needed. Absolutely no mess! And I drew up a bit of water to rinse the syringe out and flush any excess oil into the feed!

 

[paddy555]

I don't know. I don't think I'd want to give The Beast a whole piece everyday but it must be working ok for paddy555!

I was thinking of using a smaller piece (maybe 5cm x 5cm ish... Just big enough to absorb the oil). You could have that in a baby food container thing, weigh the oil onto it. Chuck in the other powders ready to tip out. Maybe. I'm not sure I've explained that very well.

I'll stick to squeezing, smooshing and rubbing with chaff. Lol.

mine has been having it on bread for about the last 4years and I have had no problems. Use half a slice if you don't want a whole one. I give oil to 5 daily with no mess, no wastage and no problems. i didn't find it syringed well and putting it in any container resulted in wastage. If you are at livery you could try leaving the ketchup bottle in your warm car. If you have to get someone else to feed you could give the oil when you visit the horse at non feeding time to save being a pain to the staff.

 

[Ellietotz]

How long was it before you started seeing a difference?

 

[Ellietotz]

How long was it before you started seeing a difference?

Still no improvement

 

[paddy555]

Still no improvement

what difference are you looking for? what else have you done? Feeding high dose e may well be needed if you have PSSM2 but it is not an instant cure. Why do you think you have PSSM2?

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I saw an improvement on just adding the vit e and making sure he had no alfalfa etc with in two weeks.

 

[Ellietotz]

what difference are you looking for? what else have you done? Feeding high dose e may well be needed if you have PSSM2 but it is not an instant cure. Why do you think you have PSSM2?

She's been on a high dose of vitamin e for about 5 days now. She is still resenting being touched all over and is not "spongey" to touch anywhere.
She displays a lot of symptoms of it and I've had a lot of other things ruled out.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

You might also have the problem of "remembered pain/discomfort" one of mine always remembers something that hurts but chuck his fave food infront of him and he lets you do anything.

I wouldnt be too discouraged.
Try some desensitising. Have a look at the trt method.

Her body and mind has been in such a state of hyper awareness that you need to treat both if that makes sense.

 

[Ellietotz]

Right, I am so done with the vitamin e oil! I can't stand it, I hate it, it's like papier-maché mixed with syrup.

There is probably about 400ml in there because I have got so much of the bloody stuff everywhere so if anyone wants to buy it, make an offer, I will post!!

 

[ycbm]

ET, vitamin E alone is not enough for most PSSM2 horses. It's not just a vitamin E deficiency, it's an incorrect storage of sugars in the muscles, that vitamin E helps with,. Most of them will also need either a very high oil diet, at least 500 ml a day, or alcar, or some other amino acid/s. Some need a blast of fast exercise regularly to get the rubbish out of their muscles. Some need keeping very warm. You need to experiment with the diet extras (from my experience, I'd go for alcar first) before you can rule it out for your mare.

I couldn't stand the oil either. Buy powder.

 

[Ellietotz]

ET, vitamin E alone is not enough for most PSSM2 horses. It's not just a vitamin E deficiency, it's an incorrect storage of sugars in the muscles, that vitamin E helps with,. Most of them will also need either a very high oil diet, at least 500 ml a day, or alcar, or some other amino acid/s. Some need a blast of fast exercise regularly to get the rubbish out of their muscles. Some need keeping very warm. You need to experiment with the diet extras (from my experience, I'd go for alcar first) before you can rule it out for your mare.

I couldn't stand the oil either. Buy powder.

Thank you for your advice. It's going to be a long journey to find what works for her.

I am going to buy the powder once I can sell the blasted oil.

 

[chaps89]

I have no experience using the oil but if I'm cooking and using a sticky sauce (marmite or syrup etc) I stand a metal spoon in hot water for a few minutes first then the sticky substance just slides off so long as the spoon is hot. Would that be worth trying?

 

[Bob notacob]

Type 2 are all muscle wasting diseases, so the aim of the game is to increase protein. Most type 2s benefit from protein supplements (whey, pea, hemp etc) or specific amino acids (Lysine, Methionine, threonine).

There is a hair test available for a type 2 myopathy panel via CAG in Germany, (no vet needed), though it is fairly expensive.

This is dangerous . If you increase the protein level you also increase the amount of aminoacid deamination. This increases the carbohydrate level within the system . Or to put it another way , knock the amino part of the molecule off and what you get ,gets fed into mostly carbohydrate metabolism. Oils are the way forward for energy and dont overdo the protein. Quality not quantity. It is an oddity that the accutely observant horsemen of old thought that High protein levels induced what they lumped together as azoturia. My thoughts are that they were on to something that couldnt be explained then. The breakdown of aminoacids

 

[Nudibranch]

Type 2s do need more protein but OP has no idea whether the horse is type 2.

ET I know you've had various investigations but it's still worth remembering that the many joint/bone/ligament issues are more prevalent than pssm of any type. I went down the type 1/type 2 route as a last resort (hair tested for type 1 which was negative) and tried vitamin E, then added alcar and nothing changed. We knew already there was arthritis developing in various spots but he had every symptom of pssm going including the rock hard muscles. If you read one of the various checklists he hit every single one. It wasn't though - I still believe hard muscles are a) very subjective and b) likely to be caused by other issues such as low grade lameness, as well as pssm.

 

[ycbm]

Most people with type 2s don't have a definitive diagnosis. Diagnosis of type2 have up till very recently only been possible by biopsy and most diagnoses, like mine, were made on the basis of improvement on the right diet.

My type 2 did not need more protein. He needed vitamin E and alcar. Before this thread, I hadn't even read of type 2s needing more protein.

 

[Nudibranch]

Which is kind of the point...it's all very well if the horse does turn out to be pssm of one type or another but how much time is potentially wasted with dietary tweaks when if it's not pssm, other investigations could be being done? There are still a lot of other potential issues and pssm could be a red herring.

It may not be but sometimes on here the pssm fervour reaches quite a high and it's hard for people not to grasp at straws. I've done it myself. So just pointing out its not always the answer.

 

[ycbm]

This is dangerous . If you increase the protein level you also increase the amount of aminoacid deamination. This increases the carbohydrate level within the system . Or to put it another way , knock the amino part of the molecule off and what you get ,gets fed into mostly carbohydrate metabolism. Oils are the way forward for energy and dont overdo the protein. Quality not quantity. It is an oddity that the accutely observant horsemen of old thought that High protein levels induced what they lumped together as azoturia. My thoughts are that they were on to something that couldnt be explained then. The breakdown of aminoacids

It's also an 'old wives' tale' that high protein causes fizzy behaviour, and that would also be explained by this. Very interesting, thanks Bob.

 

[ycbm]

Which is kind of the point...it's all very well if the horse does turn out to be pssm of one type or another but how much time is potentially wasted with dietary tweaks when if it's not pssm, other investigations could be being done? There are still a lot of other potential issues and pssm could be a red herring.

It may not be but sometimes on here the pssm fervour reaches quite a high and it's hard for people not to grasp at straws. I've done it myself. So just pointing out its not always the answer.

I think you may have missed ET's other threads about what has already been investigated with this horse.

Vitamin E and a high oil diet or alcar are harmless in horses which don't need them (unless the oil is given to a fat horse). She has nothing to lose.

In terms of time, my PSSM horse responded inside a week to vitamin E and oil and inside 48 hours to alcar. I have seen other people report similar timescales. Regarding your comment about subjectivity of judging hard muscles, there was nothing remotely mistakable about the change of muscle tone in my horse.

 

[Nudibranch]

I haven't missed the other threads. The investigations so far have not excluded everything else.

 

[Leo Walker]

They havent found anything either which is where the problem is. The horse is tense and angry, has rock hard muscles and a lot of the other symptoms. Which is why I suggest PSSM needed to at least be ruled out. I know ET has also arranged for physio to be done under sedation as recommended by her vet. The second opinion vet seems as stumped as the first though which makes it very difficult to know what to do. Its an awful situation for ET and the pony who are both desperately unhappy and have no answers or obvious avenues for exploration.

 

[Ellietotz]

They havent found anything either which is where the problem is. The horse is tense and angry, has rock hard muscles and a lot of the other symptoms. Which is why I suggest PSSM needed to at least be ruled out. I know ET has also arranged for physio to be done under sedation as recommended by her vet. The second opinion vet seems as stumped as the first though which makes it very difficult to know what to do. Its an awful situation for ET and the pony who are both desperately unhappy and have no answers or obvious avenues for exploration.

I think you may have missed ET's other threads about what has already been investigated with this horse.

Vitamin E and a high oil diet or alcar are harmless in horses which don't need them (unless the oil is given to a fat horse). She has nothing to lose.

In terms of time, my PSSM horse responded inside a week to vitamin E and oil and inside 48 hours to alcar. I have seen other people report similar timescales. Regarding your comment about subjectivity of judging hard muscles, there was nothing remotely mistakable about the change of muscle tone in my horse.

Thanks both.

I have also paid a £3k vet bill as the vet refused to put it through insurance and diagnosed her with behavioural problems instead of pursuing any further investigation. With that in mind and the fact that she is showing discomfort all over, no one knows where to look next. It is an absolute nightmare. All I want and have ever wanted was to make her happy and I am still failing.

Currently trying the keep warm-small handful of alfalfa chaff and nuts-vitamin E-mainly hay fed-hind gut balancer regime. Not a lot has changed yet so I am hoping the physio is really going to be able to release the tension.

 

[ycbm]

ET, I honestly feel like swearing at you! Why the devil have you not tried her with alcar or oil yet?

PSSM is not tension. It is a completely jumbled up organisation of muscle cells due to incorrect storage of sugars inside them. There's nothing a physio can do that will make a lasting change to a horse which has PSSM with an incorrect diet.


https://cvm.msu.edu/assets/images/general/_insideLanding/Valberg-biopsy-PSSM.jpg

At least rule it out as an easy PSSM fix*, by adding either oil or alcar to her diet.



* some horses aren't are as easy, but many will be sorted by these diet changes alone.

 

[Ellietotz]

ET, I honestly feel like swearing at you! Why the devil have you not tried her with alcar or oil yet?

Because it is all new to me. I thought oil wasn't good for ulcers? And I have seen a lot of things saying Alcar doesn't work and I don't want to be throwing money at a tonne of supplements.

 

[SEL]

I'd try Alcar - and I'm saying that as someone where it had nil effect on my horse.

Its another supplement where its cheap enough that if it hasn't shown any improvement in 2 weeks then you can stop it without your wallet taking a major hit. (Try Bulk Powders but google for a discount code first). I'd also pull the vitamin E if you see no improvement.

Bob - there was a fair amount of research done by the US universities into the causes of tying up (when you have 2 horses with a genetic tying up disorder it becomes a bit obsessive ). Protein was not a cause, but increasing the levels of carbohydrates to get the increased protein level was. So adding oats for instance. In fact most of the high protein packaged feeds on the market are also high NSC. Excess protein will be used for energy, but should also be lost in urine - and very smelly urine at that. There is various pseudo-science articles around excess protein increasing lactic acid, but lactic acid causing tying-up has been proved to be wrong in many studies now.

Nudibranch - I think in Ellie's case trying the PSSM diet is worth a shot give her vets haven't really got any further with helping her.

 

[ycbm]

Current research I have read says oil is neither good nor bad for ulcers.

After oil, the most recommended supplement that helps most horses, from all my reading, which was pretty extensive a few years back, is alcar.

I don't know what you are reading, but I think it's the wrong stuff.

You seem happy to throw money at physio. Please, do the quick and obvious diet things and rule out (or confirm) a PSSM case that responds easily, as many do.


Alcar powder is sold as a human sports supplement (Mo Farah uses it ) on eBay, and more expensively from Forageplus. There is good information from Dr Kellon about alcar use on that site.

 

[SEL]

Current research I have read says oil is neither good nor bad for ulcers.

Agreed - I feed a high oil diet to a horse with recurrent ulcers.

 

[Ellietotz]

Would it just be easier to get a muscle biopsy?

 

[Ellietotz]

Also, what oil? And how do I find out the NSC of feeds?

 

[ester]

I was going to say why not get a biopsy?

 

[ycbm]

Would it just be easier to get a muscle biopsy?

You want to pay for holes to be cut in your horses backside, and the lab fees, and the stitch removal, assuming nothing goes wrong?