PSSM- vitamin E- what else can I do?

[scats]

I had someone meet my girls the other day and after a chat and look at Polly, they asked me if if I’ve ever considered that she might have PSSM.
Honestly, I haven’t. When all her issues were going on, it wasn’t something I looked into at all and because we found mild PSD and mild hock arthritis, I just went down that rabbit hole, but looking back, some of her strange symptoms over the years do match with PSSM (although some don’t)

We aren’t currently doing anything other than a bit of long reining a couple of times a week, but I have noticed a couple of things that have concerned me, so I’ve decided to try her on a PSSM diet and see if anything changes.
She is on a very low sugar and starch diet anyway due to previous laminitis but this week I have added in forage plus vitamin e at 8000iu.

Is there anything else I can add in diet wise and how long might I see a difference?

Some possible signs that she might have an issue-
- Rock hard areas to her bum- like weirdly hard to press in certain areas- as if someone has stuck flat rocks under her skin.
- Sometimes very tucked up and prominent heave line, for no reason- a few times a week. I assumed that for some reason she was just particularly stressy those days.
- Struggling for farrier- used to be her hind legs, which I explained away because of her hind leg issues, but farrier has started to say she is struggling to hold the front ones too
-Stressy- box walks, fires poo out if anything changes or is different
-Dislikes being touched, even lightly- can’t stand brushes or human hands touching her- will walk away, shake head, stamp and scrape front feet or lift a hind leg up (but wouldn’t kick out)
-Used to, when at the height of her issues under saddle- come in lathered in white foam and throw herself on the floor, appearing to colic- I sent her in to hospital over this and had tests and ovaries scanned but nothing was ever found.
- Has a strange gait in general- holds herself rigid, though she is very forwards when she does get moving. Still won’t canter under saddle or on lunge (but I no longer ask her to)
- Lately has started bringing herself back to walk if she’s in trot on long reins- this is unheard of as she used to be like the Duracell bunny.

I came to the conclusion with Polly, after racking up huge vet bills but not getting much in way of an answer other than PSD, that something isn’t quite right in her head and her odd habits are just quirks we live with, but I’m now having the most dreadful guilt that I have missed something blatantly obvious and that she has suffered unnecessarily as a result. I spent thousands on getting this animal tested for all sorts over the years- had her in and out of hospital at one point- scans, X-rays, you name it, so to think I might have missed something is eating me up a bit.

Management wise- She is on my barest field and wears a muzzle when needed. Feed is simply light chaff to carry her vitamin supp (and now vitamin e oil) and she is in during the day with a net of hay. Weight wise she is looking great- not overweight (has been previously).

Is it worth getting the hair test done or should I just treat as having it and see if anything changes?
I have no desire to up her work and I still haven’t sat on her since my accident so this is simply in the hope that it might help with her general quality of life.

 

[Dexter]

Have her tested so you know one way or another. I think your issue might be that shes a welsh section D isn't she? In which case type 2 is very common but the test isn't reliable and there isn't a set treatment that works. But start with the type 1 test, it only costs around £30 and is reliable and accurate.

And don't beat yourself up. PSSM is almost never on vets radar, and its only really become more widely known about in the last few years.

 

[SEL]

What breed is she Scats? I agree the type 1 test is worth a shot from what you describe

Rain and wind are big triggers for mine along with grass. I've been caught out by the weather rather a lot recently and if I run my hands along her back the muscle doesn't flow - it feels sticky & lumpy. I'm hauling her out for at least in hand walks though because the more movement the better

Magnesium can also help

 

[ycbm]

Although I've since read stuff saying it doesn't work, when I gave mine 10g of alcar his muscles deflated in 24 hours like a popped balloon. They went all saggy and loose and then built back up in time to something that felt much better.

 

[scats]

Thanks all. We’re not sure of her breeding (it’s Millie who is the part bred welsh), I’ll attach a picture to see if anyone has any ideas.
She’s just in passport as ‘unknown’ and she was sold to me as a sports pony. She’s just 15hh, but very pony like.



Interesting about the Alcar ycbm, is it palatable? She’s a bit of a horror for not eating stuff and I was relieved to see the vitamin e oil went down ok with her.

 

[Tiddlypom]

As I think you may know, my wonky IDx mare with similar symptoms responded incredibly well to 1. having high levels of vitamin E added to her diet and 2, keeping her warm.

Before this she had become so uncomfortable, unhappy and cross that I was at my wits end with her and was on the verge of gifting her back to her breeder.


I did do the PSSM type 1 hair test which came back negative. The vet agrees that she has a form of PSSM but she would need a muscle biopsy to definitively confirm that. As I now have her symptoms controlled I swerved that, and my vet understood why.

She's been 8000iu per day of natural vit E since 2017. I recently titrated it down to 4000iu/day when I changed suppliers, all her symptoms returned, and she's back on the full whack again.

I have a full rug wardrobe to keep her back warm year round. If she had been left unrugged on a cold wet July day like we had earlier this week she'd have been tucked up and miserable.

Good luck. It's well worth an explore. The hair test is easy and cheap so I'd get that done.

 

[scats]

As I think you may know, my wonky IDx mare with similar symptoms responded incredibly well to 1. having high levels of vitamin E added to her diet and 2, keeping her warm.

Before this she had become so uncomfortable, unhappy and cross that I was at my wits end with her and was on the verge of gifting her back to her breeder.


I did do the PSSM type 1 hair test which came back negative. The vet agrees that she has a form of PSSM but she would need a muscle biopsy to definitively confirm that. As I now have her symptoms controlled I swerved that, and my vet understood why.

She's been 8000iu per day of natural vit E since 2017. I recently titrated it down to 4000iu/day when I changed suppliers, all her symptoms returned, and she's back on the full whack again.

I have a full rug wardrobe to keep her back warm year round. If she had been left unrugged on a cold wet July day like we had earlier this week she'd have been tucked up and miserable.

Good luck. It's well worth an explore. The hair test is easy and cheap so I'd get that done.

How long til you saw a difference on the vitamin e?
She’s a really sweet little horse, there is no malice in her at all and she seems mostly happy in her own little way but she is very ‘odd’, for want of a better word. I’ve accepted her quirks (we’ve been together 6 years now), though sometimes it’s like banging my head against a brick wall because you just can’t get through to her, she’s so stuck in her own head. I’ve even had professionals tell me it’s like she’s autistic.

I will get the hair test done and carry on with the vitamin e. Anything else worth trying? I think I will give the Alcar a go aswell.

 

[Tiddlypom]

How long til you saw a difference on the vitamin e?

48 hours or so? I'd read about vit E on here and wasn't expecting anything from it, but I'd run out of all other options. I was girding up my courage to contact her breeder to gift her back.

It was miraculous.

 

[Dexter]

48 hours or so? I'd read about vit E on here and wasn't expecting anything from it, but I'd run out of all other options. I was girding up my courage to contact her breeder to gift her back.

It was miraculous.

Same, and within a week other people noticed and commented. Within 2 weeks I had a completely different horse.

 

[Dexter]

Thanks all. We’re not sure of her breeding (it’s Millie who is the part bred welsh), I’ll attach a picture to see if anyone has any ideas.
She’s just in passport as ‘unknown’ and she was sold to me as a sports pony. She’s just 15hh, but very pony like.
View attachment 118204


Interesting about the Alcar ycbm, is it palatable? She’s a bit of a horror for not eating stuff and I was relieved to see the vitamin e oil went down ok with her.

Thats good! Shes very pretty. I wonder if shes got a hefty dose of new forest in there? They do use them in sports pony breeding and sadly they had a huge problem with PSSM type 1 which the breed society have done a great job of getting on top of.

 

[paddy555]

the final piece of the jigsaw for one of mine who reacted miraculously to high dose E supp. was oily herbs. They really did something to presumably the hind gut. The result from them was very quick. I think mine are from wholefoods online. I buy kg packs of thyme, rosemary and oregano and mix them. Very cheap and one each of 500kg packs would keep you going for a long time. His symptoms to were quite similar to yours to start with. Don't think they can do any harm and may do some good.

Keep her dry and rug in the slightest cold. That makes a difference for some. It is trial and error.

 

[ycbm]

Vitamin E 48 hours to see a result like everyone else. The Alcar I gave was additional.

Having fed them for a while now I would swear by oily herbs for every horse who doesn't have free access to them in their grazing.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Alcar made mine worse, that was a short lived trial. It might well suit some horses, but not mine.

She's been on oily herbs for the last couple of years, and while it's not made any difference to her PSSM type symptoms it has benefitted her general health.

All my 3 are now on oily herbs, and they will remain on them.

 

[BBP]

Is she hypermobile at all?

 

[scats]

Is she hypermobile at all?

Hmm, I’m not sure. What things would I look out for?

Unrelated (or possibly not) she was hit by the prongs of a tractor prior to me buying her. The prong badly injured her right hind down to the bone and it’s that leg that has the PSD. It was a substantial injury and has left a scar, though it look incredible considering.

 

[scats]

Thought I’d do a little update. Pol has been on the vitamin e oil (8000iu) for four days now. I think she has been a little more generally relaxed, though I’ve not noticed a huge obvious difference in how her back end feels. She’s normally quite funny about lifting her legs for me, prefers to box walk first, but she’s been happily lifting them without much resistance.
Also, something that should have sent her into a melt down yesterday while I was out hacking Millie, didn’t. I arrived back expecting a bed of mulch and a stressed Polly but she was happily tucking into her hay.
Now sometimes she does surprise me and can be very level headed about quite scary things, so this may have been nothing and I could be reading into something wrongly.
But I’m going to continue with the vitamin e oil for the time being and see how she goes over the next couple of weeks.

 

[Tiddlypom]

That's a promising start. Are you managing to keep her back warm but not cooking her completely in this crazy weather?

This is my vit E dependent mare yesterday morning after a wet night out. It was mild but much wetter than forecast. She was definitely cross under her fly rug complete with a removable waterproof liner, even though she was dry underneath it. I'd thought it too warm even for her in a 50g.

 

[ycbm]

Hmm, I’m not sure. What things would I look out for? (With hypermobility)

Fetlocks dropping close to or on the floor in walk or trot is the most noticeable one.

 

[SEL]

That's a promising start. Are you managing to keep her back warm but not cooking her completely in this crazy weather?

This is my vit E dependent mare yesterday morning after a wet night out. It was mild but much wetter than forecast. She was definitely cross under her fly rug complete with a removable waterproof liner, even though she was dry underneath it. I'd thought it too warm even for her in a 50g.

View attachment 118461

View attachment 118462

I had furious PSSM mare in a rainsheet yesterday. Damp and cold underneath. Had her 50g on last night but she was doing stretches with her back legs this morning which is a sign she's stiffened up.

Today is awful I have been boiled and soaked in a 2 hour ride so no chance of rugging correctly today

 

[scats]

Unfortunately she overheats ridiculously easily and gets quite frantic- rubbing against the walls and box walking worse than normal, so I have to be very careful of over rugging. Even in snow and minus conditions she can only cope with a 100g and mostly wears a 50g all winter, so she is currently naked.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Doesn't sound like she feels the cold, then .

If she feels at all cold my mare would take a warmer rug and put it on herself given the chance!

 

[ycbm]

Unfortunately she overheats ridiculously easily and gets quite frantic- rubbing against the walls and box walking worse than normal, so I have to be very careful of over rugging. Even in snow and minus conditions she can only cope with a 100g and mostly wears a 50g all winter, so she is currently naked.

Mine was never bothered about being cold.
.