PSSM ?

[Birker2020]

For those that have been following my story I won't repeat the whole thing but just to say that my boy is going in on Friday for lameness reassessment and potentially having his back medicated (signs of KS). Then if he remains sound will be ridden by a pro rider as a schooling livery type situation, originally it was with a view to me getting back on him if he remained sound, but now I have had second thoughts and if I am entirely honest with myself I do not think he is the horse for me and I am considering sales livery again as heart breaking as this is as I love the horse.

In the past he's displayed signs of ataxia, canters strangely at times with his hind legs and is reluctant to go forwards when ridden or on the lunge, but when he does go forwards looks very well. Given that he was involved in an accident where he pulled back which had the potential for hurting his neck and his SI was very sore afterwards I followed numerous months in hand rehab followed by riding by a pro rider, saddle fitting, dentist, physio, etc. When I started riding him (as the pro rider had found) he appeared to be very spooky and felt like he was going to explode. In the end I had a bad fall off him when he fly bucked after I got on him from the mounting block.

So he had his back assessed at the clinic and he was found to have KS on x-ray which may or may not have been relevant. He had a couple of processes medicated but is going in on Friday to have the whole back done although none of us (me, physio, vet) are convinced this is the issue.

He looks very good on the lunge and can move amazingly, I'm still doing the odd lunging over poles, walking in hand over raised poles but my hearts not in it anymore if I'm honest and the recent weeks holiday away from him only told me what I already knew, that I'd not missed him as much as I thought I would, the whole situation has been very stressful for me.

I have felt for a while now that it may be a neck issue that he has. When he pulled back and the damn bailing twine failed to break he hurt himself, I assumed he'd hurt his neck due to the way he'd pulled back and he had damaged his SI (which a professional believes he was already lame from when I first had him). I got the vet to x-ray his neck as he was very ataxic and I was concerned and was told that C5-C6 and C6-C7 showed changes, but the vet couldn't tell if they were recent , i.e. from the accident. Two subsequent vets from a new practice said changes don't show up in 11 days (11 days being from date of accident to second vet visit when he was x-rayed) and can take months to show so this may be a complete misnomer.

When I bought him I was told by the owner to put him on electrolytes. I am now wondering if the ataxia and the not going forwards are possibly symptoms of PSSM and wondered if the suggestion that the horse should be on electrolytes in October was due to this. Would electrolytes help PSSM?

I can't keep going down these dead ends with the vets, first thinking its SI, then thinking its his neck, then thinking it might be KS and now wondering if he might have PSSM. Trouble is his symptoms can be attributed to any number of those issues. I can't ask the vets to investigate everything wrong with the horse as for my own mental health (I am really struggling with this) I need to put a time limit on how long I am prepared to go on with him, I have three claims already open plus an existing claim and I have spent in excess of 2K of my own money on sorting him as well as 2.5K on insurance. I've had him 8 months, have sat on him probably 14 or 15 times in total and need to reach a conclusion before September really if I am to rough him off before the winter and retirement which it looks like I might need to do or sell him at a knock down price on sales livery.

It all hinges on what they find on Friday at the vets. I want to take him to Tom Beech and have had a conversation with him: I intend to ask my vets if they will refer me for the insurance as its quite costly and I really can't afford to spend much more of my own money. It could be something simple like his atlas or poll is out. Or his wolf tooth from where he had it out has caused issues. It could be anything.

I've been told by the vets that considering his age 11 and his past competition history he doesn't have a huge amount wrong with him and his SI has improved massively since he was last seen and they feel he has a good prognosis and should be saleable.

 

[Dexter]

It would be type 2 in a warmblood. This is a really useful video for symptoms etc. Theres a few more on there that cover various symptoms etc that would be worth watching

I'd think it was very unlikely given his age and the fact its just started recently. Tom Beech is about £200 so not hugely expensive, but he does take insurance referals

 

[Birker2020]

It would be type 2 in a warmblood. This is a really useful video for symptoms etc. Theres a few more on there that cover various symptoms etc that would be worth watching

I'd think it was very unlikely given his age and the fact its just started recently. Tom Beech is about £200 so not hugely expensive, but he does take insurance referals

Thank you.

Thanks I will have a watch.

Yes Tom is £250 if you go to him or £300 something if he comes to you. He does take referrals but my insurance claim form small print said I have to have the say so of my vet, so my vet has to say he thinks its worth having.

 

[tda]

As far as I know, pssm 1 can be diagnosed by hair sample and can be managed
Pssm 2 is done by muscle biopsy and not as easy to manage, if at all
There are some fb groups who are very knowledgeable
Hope you get some answers

 

[Rowreach]

It would be type 2 in a warmblood. This is a really useful video for symptoms etc. Theres a few more on there that cover various symptoms etc that would be worth watching

I'd think it was very unlikely given his age and the fact its just started recently. Tom Beech is about £200 so not hugely expensive, but he does take insurance referals

It’s unusual for warm bloods to have pssm1 but not unheard of, so for the sake of £30 it might be worth testing. I agree Tom Beech would be a good call.

 

[MuffettMischief]

Thank you.

Thanks I will have a watch.

Yes Tom is £250 if you go to him or £300 something if he comes to you. He does take referrals but my insurance claim form small print said I have to have the say so of my vet, so my vet has to say he thinks its worth having.

hope you don’t mind me asking but where is he based? I’ve looked on his website but couldn’t see. He’s something I’ve been thinking about

 

[Birker2020]

hope you don’t mind me asking but where is he based? I’ve looked on his website but couldn’t see. He’s something I’ve been thinking about

He is based in Stockport, Cheshire. He can arrange a yard visit if there are other yards within your vicinity, its usually an extra £40-£50 per head for travel. He will need a minimum of 6 people (spread through different yards or your own yard). So he would visit you and each yard separately but each incurs a visit fee.

Follow up incurs £195 a session. You might need further tests, sedation, internal or osteopathic dental work, and that's all extra. But if its on insurance its probably worthwhile.

He has a clinic in Compton Verney which isn't a million miles from us, hence why I was interested in taking him there. I really think it will benefit him.

Clinics are in

Harrogate, Chesterfield, Newark, Warrington, Doncaster, Northants, Polegate, Essex, Gatwick, Stafford, Barrowford, New Forest, Exeter, Ashford, Guernsey and Jersey.

deposits are £50

 

[MuffettMischief]

He is based in Stockport, Cheshire. He can arrange a yard visit if there are other yards within your vicinity, its usually an extra £40-£50 per head for travel. He will need a minimum of 6 people (spread through different yards or your own yard). So he would visit you and each yard separately but each incurs a visit fee.

Follow up incurs £195 a session. You might need further tests, sedation, internal or osteopathic dental work, and that's all extra. But if its on insurance its probably worthwhile.

He has a clinic in Compton Verney which isn't a million miles from us, hence why I was interested in taking him there. I really think it will benefit him.

Clinics are in

Harrogate, Chesterfield, Newark, Warrington, Doncaster, Northants, Polegate, Essex, Gatwick, Stafford, Barrowford, New Forest, Exeter, Ashford, Guernsey and Jersey.

deposits are £50

Super super helpful Thankyou!

 

[sbloom]

He has a clinic in Compton Verney which isn't a million miles from us, hence why I was interested in taking him there. I really think it will benefit him.

If you go to Compton Verney PLEASE have Dan Wain look at him too, he does amazing in hand work, the sort I keep banging on about. He's one of the VERY few people I would allow to rehab a horse.

 

[SEL]

If you go to Compton Verney PLEASE have Dan Wain look at him too, he does amazing in hand work, the sort I keep banging on about. He's one of the VERY few people I would allow to rehab a horse.

I was just about to say exactly the same. Dan has an exceptional eye and if you can get your boy well enough a few weeks with Dan would be worth the cost. He will absolutely tell you if he thinks your horse couldn't be ridden / needs turning away etc.

The PSSM 2 tests are in their infancy and debatable as to their reliability. If previous owners found electrolytes useful then I'd just keep feeding them. There's so much coming to light about genetic issues that his body could well need something in them.

 

[paddy555]

I have felt for a while now that it may be a neck issue that he has. When he pulled back and the damn bailing twine failed to break he hurt himself, I assumed he'd hurt his neck due to the way he'd pulled back and he had damaged his SI (which a professional believes he was already lame from when I first had him). I got the vet to x-ray his neck as he was very ataxic and I was concerned and was told that C5-C6 and C6-C7 showed changes, but the vet couldn't tell if they were recent , i.e. from the accident. Two subsequent vets from a new practice said changes don't show up in 11 days (11 days being from date of accident to second vet visit when he was x-rayed) and can take months to show so this may be a complete misnomer.

When I bought him I was told by the owner to put him on electrolytes. I am now wondering if the ataxia and the not going forwards are possibly symptoms of PSSM and wondered if the suggestion that the horse should be on electrolytes in October was due to this. Would electrolytes help PSSM?

.

and did you give him electrolytes? The following is from a KER article. (I can give you a link if you need it) If you haven't given them then why not try it. Get the make from the old owner. I expect FP sell them and it won't be that expensive. You could also give high dose vit e say 10000iu per day for a month or so and see if there is improvement. PSSM horses spook and I suspect this is due to pain. I wouldn't have thought both the electrolytes and vit E would be much more than £100 for a short period to try. You don't need a vet and it is very little work. FP do a reasonably priced vit E or you could splash out for a small quantity of Nano just try.

As you mentioned, there are several forms of vitamin E available to horse owners. Natural-source vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol) is the clear winner when compared to synthetic (dl-alpha-tocopherol), in terms of usefulness. The bioavailability and absorption rate of natural-source vitamin E is five times that of synthetic vitamin E. Investing in a liquid natural-source vitamin E like Nano•E will ensure your horse is getting the proper antioxidant support for muscle repair.

Your gelding might also benefit from the slow-release electrolyte Restore SR. Replenishing electrolytes in PSSM horses is a good way to promote proper muscle contractions and hydration. The slow release of sodium allows sustained absorption for maximum benefit.

If he was mine I would ask Dr Dave Siemmens to look at him especially in view of the potential neck injury and even better if he can look at your X rays. If you have back x rays so much the better. I had a horse neck injury and Dave assessed and dealt with it very quickly. I thought I was done but then he glanced at the rest of the horse and told me everything else that was wrong with him. (people that have used Dave will understand the "grin" emoji)


Dave came to the UK with Mark Rashid to work on the horses before they were trained. I don't know his current charges but cannot think it would be much more that £100 for an assessment and treatment. He is a very experienced pair of eyes in how horses stand and move. Well worth it. He travels around and even if you had to pay transport (he is near Exeter) it would be worth his opinion.

both of these suggestions as pretty cheap in the scheme of things and could at least get you a much improved horse to sell

this is from the MSU site about PSSM in Warmbloods
In Warmblood horses tying up may be reported occasionally with high serum CK. However, the most common clinical signs of type 2 PSSM in Warmbloods are often most closely related to poor performance without elevations in serum CK activity. An undiagnosed gait abnormality, sore muscles and drop in energy level and unwillingness to perform after 5 -10 min of exercise are common complaints with type 2 PSSM. Warmbloods with type 2 PSSM have painful firm back and hindquarter muscles, reluctance to collect and engage the hindquarters, poor rounding over fences, gait abnormalities, and slow onset of atrophy especially when out of work. The mean age of onset of clinical signs in Warmbloods is between 8 and 11 years of age with the median CK and AST activity being 323 and 331U/L, respectively.


https://thehorse.com/199885/brushing-up-on-tying-up-in-horses/ although on the face of it this article appears to be about tying up it is well worth a read iro warmbloods as it moves around the problems of warmbloods and PSSM2.

not saying Lari has PSSM2 or even 1, just answering your question re PSSM and providing info.

 

[Marigold4]

I paid for a visit from Tom Beech and then a follow up. At the follow up, he clearly hadn't read his own notes from before and so treated different things and said things that were inconsistent with the first visit. Horse was no different after first or second treatment and it was very expensive. He doesn't watch the horse move either - just gets stuck into feeling the horse. I don't understand that logic.

 

[Birker2020]

I paid for a visit from Tom Beech and then a follow up. At the follow up, he clearly hadn't read his own notes from before and so treated different things and said things that were inconsistent with the first visit. Horse was no different after first or second treatment and it was very expensive. He doesn't watch the horse move either - just gets stuck into feeling the horse. I don't understand that logic.

Thanks M4. I've taken advice from a professional who has told me to avoid using him so I will not be using him as I trust their judgement. But thank you for that, no I can't understand with what you are saying why he doesn't see the horse move either. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Birker2020]

UPDATE: So its good news. Lari has been to the vet last Friday and had his back medicated.

The vet did a full lameness workup and he was so much better on the hard ground lunging in a circle, displayed no neuro signs other than a slight ataxia on the tail sway test which he put down to the SI being slightly sore still - I think he did this being a t**T on the lunge the other day.

He looked very good on the lunge on both reins, even strides and also upon flexion - the vet said that he would have passed him had he been out to see vet him. He caveated this by saying that he's only seen probably two, maybe three horses in his career that have been 100% sound, he said it is very rare occurrence and most horses have issues in one way or the other that wouldn't impact them in a competition situation or otherwise.

So he came home, was on box rest for 30 hours and then I turned him out as instructed. He can start to be ridden next weekend. Then if he remains sound he's off to a sales livery with disclosure of mild kissing spine as stated by the vet. I won't be getting on him again. I said I'd not go down the sales route but I feel this is my only chance to have another horse in the immediate future.

I'm hoping he will sell although heart breaking nevertheless, its been one hell of a journey, one which has been extremely distressing and upsetting and one that is not over yet. I love the horse with all my heart so I'm trying to spend as little time with him as I can and have a day off per week to concentrate on other things and try and provide some distance.

I just want a horse I can ride, the feeling is stronger than ever and is all I can think about. I have had to come off the yard Whats App and FB for a while as I'm finding it too upsetting,. I don't begrudge anyone having fun on their horses, but I am finding it hard to cope with the fact that it should be me having fun, not being nurse to yet another horse.