PSSM1 diet

[I don’t like mondays]

Hi, I’m looking for advice as to what to feed my n/p1 PSSM1 horse and interested in what others do. She’s recently diagnosed and struggling with symptoms. I started with vit E but this alone hasn’t helped so I’ve upped it and added magnesium (today) and changed to forage plus. Her current feed is:
Dengie non molasses
Vit E 8000iu (recently increased from 6,000)
Forage plus winter balancer low iron (I’ve worked out the vit e in this plus added vit E= 10,000)
Magnesium 14g- this is the dose on the forage plus pack but the balancer has Magnesium too
tumeric
Devils claw (she’s got SI and hock arthritis)
Adhoc hay (not much grass in field)
She’s also being rugged more than before

symptoms are tight muscles, unable to trot, rearing if working in hand

thanks

 

[SEL]

Worth asking the vet to run bloods for muscle enzymes to see if they're still high. I'd also recommend asking them to prescribe robaxin for a period - its a muscle relaxant and I found it helped get mine through a bad episode.

I also ditch the turmeric. It's an insulin sensitiser so might be causing a problem. Some P1s are fine with it, others aren't.

Have you tested your hay? Does the Dengie have alfalfa in it?

Any better on Bute given the arthritis? Hocks and SI issues even without the myopathy can cause tight hindquarters.

Sometimes they just need time to clear the glycogen from their system, but that behaviour does sound pain related. Ulcers?

 

[I don’t like mondays]

Worth asking the vet to run bloods for muscle enzymes to see if they're still high. I'd also recommend asking them to prescribe robaxin for a period - its a muscle relaxant and I found it helped get mine through a bad episode.

I also ditch the turmeric. It's an insulin sensitiser so might be causing a problem. Some P1s are fine with it, others aren't.

Have you tested your hay? Does the Dengie have alfalfa in it?

Any better on Bute given the arthritis? Hocks and SI issues even without the myopathy can cause tight hindquarters.

Sometimes they just need time to clear the glycogen from their system, but that behaviour does sound pain related. Ulcers?

Thanks SEL. She had her hocks and SI injected a couple of weeks ago, no improvement (she can’t trot, hops into it) and started rearing while hand walking (so someone on here quite rightly suggested that could well be the Pssm).

The Dengie does have a bit of alfalfa, I’m assuming it might be a good idea to ditch that in favour of a basic non mollassed chaff? Didn’t know that about Tumeric so will ditch that

ETA not tested hay, what do I get it tested for, is it mineral content?

good idea, I’ll ask for roblaxin. Her muscles have felt very tight but improving each day since vit E

 

[SEL]

Thanks SEL. She had her hocks and SI injected a couple of weeks ago, no improvement (she can’t trot, hops into it) and started rearing while hand walking (so someone on here quite rightly suggested that could well be the Pssm).

The Dengie does have a bit of alfalfa, I’m assuming it might be a good idea to ditch that in favour of a basic non mollassed chaff? Didn’t know that about Tumeric so will ditch that

ETA not tested hay, what do I get it tested for, is it mineral content?

good idea, I’ll ask for roblaxin. Her muscles have felt very tight but improving each day since vit E

I always think it's worth trying without alfalfa just to see if it makes a difference. Hay a basic check to see if it has high sugar levels (I was on a yard where it came back 17% once). Cheapest I've found is D&H. If you can find a bodyworker who does fascia release that's been the most useful for mine when her muscles have got in knots.
Otherwise you might just need time for her system to sort itself out. Some do need oil in their diet too. Mine is just getting to the stage where she's very flat and if she was still in work I'd need copra. I'm debating with myself because when she's flat her posture is awful which doesn't help her other injuries but she's also fat and doesn't need the calories...

https://dodsonhorrell.myshopify.com/collections/forage-analysis

 

[ycbm]

I've no experience of this but some horses can't absorb powdered vitamin E and you might need to try nanoE which is apparently more bio available. It's hellishly expensive but you might be able to drop the dose rate over time.
.

 

[Dexter]

I'd drop the alfa alfa. I cant remember the science but its something to do with calcium I think. Anyway, I've never known a type 1 that can tolerate alfa alfa.

Is it natural or synthetic vitamin e you are feeding?

If shes tight then Id be inclinced to follow SELs advice and run bloods. I found intially mine needed a lot of work and a lot of care, but once stablised I could take a more relaxed approach. It took 48 hours to see an improvement, but 3 months to get totally "better" so dont despair yet!

 

[rextherobber]

Agree with ditching anything with alfalfa in it for a while, to see if that makes a difference. Was she tested for 1 and 2 ?

 

[I don’t like mondays]

Agree with ditching anything with alfalfa in it for a while, to see if that makes a difference. Was she tested for 1 and 2 ?

Only tested for 1 at the moment and n/p1. She’s also recently diagnosed with hock and bad SI arthritis (at only 6 with minimal work)

 

[I don’t like mondays]

I'd drop the alfa alfa. I cant remember the science but its something to do with calcium I think. Anyway, I've never known a type 1 that can tolerate alfa alfa.

Is it natural or synthetic vitamin e you are feeding?

If shes tight then Id be inclinced to follow SELs advice and run bloods. I found intially mine needed a lot of work and a lot of care, but once stablised I could take a more relaxed approach. It took 48 hours to see an improvement, but 3 months to get totally "better" so dont despair yet!

Sorry only just seen this. It’s natural vit E from forage plus. Her muscles are starting to feel better each day (I’ve changed the balancer and added mag for the past few days)

 

[Dexter]

Only tested for 1 at the moment and n/p1. She’s also recently diagnosed with hock and bad SI arthritis (at only 6 with minimal work)

The PSSM may well have caused the arthritic changes you've seen. Its horribly common with PSSM. With a little bit of luck once the PSSM is under control the rest wont be an issue. I've got everything crossed for you and your daughter

 

[I don’t like mondays]

The PSSM may well have caused the arthritic changes you've seen. Its horribly common with PSSM. With a little bit of luck once the PSSM is under control the rest wont be an issue. I've got everything crossed for you and your daughter

Thanks so much Dexter

 

[maya2008]

Ours benefitted most from just low sugar everything. We fed her like she was laminitic, with high fibre haylage, restricted grass in lush times, low sugar feed. Mine reacted really really badly to alfalfa also, so just fed Mollichaff (the low sugar one) and speedibeet as a base, then added ERS nuts/TopSpec ulcer kind when she was in full work. A handful of hi fi was enough alfalfa to set her off for days.

With this as a base she show jumped like a dream, galloped, hacked for miles and lived a full and active life until a field injury curtailed it and then eventually spelled the end. Many years of rosettes and trophies could attest to the wonders of plenty of work and a low sugar, alfalfa free diet!

 

[I don’t like mondays]

Ours benefitted most from just low sugar everything. We fed her like she was laminitic, with high fibre haylage, restricted grass in lush times, low sugar feed. Mine reacted really really badly to alfalfa also, so just fed Mollichaff (the low sugar one) and speedibeet as a base, then added ERS nuts/TopSpec ulcer kind when she was in full work. A handful of hi fi was enough alfalfa to set her off for days.

With this as a base she show jumped like a dream, galloped, hacked for miles and lived a full and active life until a field injury curtailed it and then eventually spelled the end. Many years of rosettes and trophies could attest to the wonders of plenty of work and a low sugar, alfalfa free diet!

Thanks maya. I’m now starting to see that Alfalfa is the devils work for some ponies (our other pony is fine on it)

 

[I don’t like mondays]

Hi I’m struggling this week and don’t know what to do next. I made all the diet changes and started rugging (inc removing the alfalfa). Pony’s muscles feeling nice and floppy. Had one good 10min walk, then tried the next day and she could hardly walk (like the hand break was on) but muscles weren’t tight like tying up- so I called it a day. Tried again today (nice warm weather) took her on an in hand walk with another pony leading (her field friend) and she felt so slow and just constantly planted :-( I tried all the usual things but she wouldn’t move. We went home after only managing 7 mins. I think this is pain but I’m doubting myself whether it’s behavioural and it’s down to me.

I tried to lunge her (walking) the other day and she wouldn’t move, just planted, I didn’t want to start chasing her with a whip in case she was hurting and in case the pressure caused a rear. I know cobs are clever so she could be taking advantage of me being too soft? she was stiff just walking to the field but Is now wondering around ok.

the rearing seems to have stopped but we are now planting

I just don’t know what to do next. I feel emotionally broken and I’m running out of money. The vet doesn’t seem to acknowledge Pssm. Im rehabbing from steroid injections for arthritis and vet said to get after her with the lunge whip.
thanks

 

[maya2008]

It’s really hard for the pony. With pssm 1, less action means more build-up of glycogen in the muscles. The only way to fix that is to work and thus raise the metabolism and prevent further build-up of problematic compounds - but working hurts. We got through this with tough love and a big dose of trust. My pony knew me, she trusted me and when I said she had to work, she gave it all she could. In time, she began to see the benefits, but it’s a very fine line you have to walk. The arthritis complicates things further because now there is more wrong than just the pssm. To a point though, your vet isn’t wrong. If she’s not actively tied up, the only way out is through - for both the arthritis and the pssm.

 

[Dexter]

Have you got an instructor or similar who could work her and make a judgement call on whether they think its pain or cheeky pony trying it on? f they push through it, then she should improve, if she doesnt then you have your answer. I'm always inclined to think pain, but it would be one way of seeing.

 

[SEL]

I have to bully my P1 mare into work when she's coming back after a tie up. I run with her in hand. I usually do it when there's no one around because it looks horrible.

Bute for a few days might help

 

[I don’t like mondays]

Hi everyone, we’re still hanging in there but the pony still isn’t right.

Decided I needed help (and now have no confidence).

Sent her in for more tests (to check no other issues before getting professional to help rehab). Everything scanned and xrayed clear (just hocks and si which are a previous diagnosis).

Had instructor over last week to help work her. Instructor palpated muscles and pony wasn’t happy being touched and reared (small rear). Instructor says muscles felt really blocked. Instructor doesn’t want to work her until muscles feel better. It’s worrying just being gently touched caused such a reaction

I’ve got a vet coming out and I’m going to ask for bloods (muscle, vit E, mag- anything else?). There’s definitely something going on in the muscles. I can’t rehab while she’s like this because she’s dangerous. I’m also going to grass muzzle her to limit grass (we don’t have much but it’s short and sugary). I’m wondering if this is the missing thing? Or could she have Pssm2 hence why she’s not improved at all on a pssm1 only diet?

This is so hard…feels like running up an escalator the wrong way

Has anyone got any other advice? Anything I’m missing? Thanks

 

[I don’t like mondays]

Have you got an instructor or similar who could work her and make a judgement call on whether they think its pain or cheeky pony trying it on? f they push through it, then she should improve, if she doesnt then you have your answer. I'm always inclined to think pain, but it would be one way of seeing.

I took your advice and my instructor (who is very no nonsense) said definitely pain. I’ve had every part of the Skeleton scanned and X-rays so it seems to be muscles. She can’t bear anyone palpating the muscles. She’s great for us to groom and pet though

 

[quizzie]

I’ve got a vet coming out and I’m going to ask for bloods (muscle, vit E, mag- anything else?). There’s definitely something going on in the muscles. I can’t rehab while she’s like this because she’s dangerous. I’m also going to grass muzzle her to limit grass (we don’t have much but it’s short and sugary). I’m wondering if this is the missing thing? Or could she have Pssm2 hence why she’s not improved at all on a pssm1 only diet?

Has anyone got any other advice? Anything I’m missing? Thanks

If her blood level of vitamin E is still low, despite your supplementing with natural vit E....then try Nano_E.....some horses just can't absorb/utilise the powdered versions. The fact that she showed an initial improvement with the diet changes would make me suspicious that she may be one that needs it.

 

[SEL]

I didn't realise she was still on grass - that could be your issue right there. What rug weight are you using?

At least you know it's the muscles now. Ask your vet for a course of robaxin - it really helps get them over the hump

 

[PurBee]

The calcium and magnesium (and phosphorus) ratio in your horses diet will effect muscle tightness, bone strength etc.

Your forage plus supplement contains 14g mag oxide = thats 8.4g elemental magnesium.

For a 500kg horse not working thats about their right needs.

HOWEVER - forage can have seriously high calcium levels compared to mag. Levels.

There needs to be a 2:1 calcium:mag ration in the diet.

So, not only do we supplement what lacks in forage, we also have to consider the level of high calcium in the hay/haylage and balance that with more magnesium.

Also, phosphorus to calcium ratio in hay is usually off, and this is another imbalance that affects so many aspects of bone strength health, ligaments etc.

But for your pony lets focus primarily on magnesium and calcium levels, as magnesium is the main mineral that aids muscle health and relaxation (aswell as many other vital functions)

The trouble with minerals and blood tests is that the body will rob needed minerals for circulating in the blood and muscle function, from the bones. So a blood test can show good mag levels, but if we could do a bone mag test, that would likely show low levels. The same is the case for calcium and phosphorus - they will be robbed from the bones if the levels in the diet are low or in the wrong ratio.
So arthritic symptoms in horses can soley be down to years of eating majority forage of wrong cal/mag/phos levels in the diet.

Urine tests would be better, but it's hard to get urine from a horse! If the body is robbing from the bones the urine levels should be negligable. If there’s plenty of mag supplemented there should be a tiny bit excreted in urine - suggesting the body is using up all the mag it needs and there’s some left over it hasnt needed to use.
The body has mag stores in a lot of places and will be delivering mag to all these stores. It will be doing this over time to a mag deficient horse. If we gave 20g mag per day to a deficient horse, we’d expect to see high urine levels of mag. This would be because the body can only process so much mag per 24hrs. The horse still has bone deficiency, but there would be high urine levels. We may lower or stop the mag dose if we solely read the test results as absolute fact - what the test results is telling us is that there is excess mag dose the body cant use, not that the horse doesnt need mag. It can tell us that our dose needs adjusting.
Alongside symptoms we read the results.

Ideally we’d like to have 1 good forage supplier we stick with, and get that hay tested for cal/mag/phos. From there we can add other foods to balance the usually wonky mineral ratio’s commonly seen in forage.

Alfalfa, as talked about in the thread, is very high in calcium compared to phosphorus. it needs to be paired with grain feeds to balance out that high calcium.


I suspect your pony still needs more magnesium. If you spend your money on any more tests id spend it on forage tests for calcium, phosphorus and magnesium.
Only do this if you have a barn full of hay from 1 supplier youll be feeding your pony all winter with. If you feed forage from various sources, youd need to get it all tested, ideally - which is alot of work and expense.

With the results from your hay, you can see the ratio values - how far out they are from ideal values, and know exactly how much more to add to balance your forage.

Look at this example from a website article ill link you all about magnesium in horses. The forage was tested for calcium and magnesium and despite there being 10g mag in the days ration of hay, the calcium was even higher, so more magnesium is needed to balance out the high calcium. Much more magnesium than the RDA suggested for horses.
The RDA values are suggested alongside healthy calcium levels. Once calcium starts being high in forage, we have to dose outside of the RDA to maintain balanced minerals in the body:

”In order to determine how much magnesium to feed to achieve at least a 2:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium, owners must know the current nutrient levels of the feed.

For example, if the hay contains 0.15% magnesium and 0.8% calcium, the following calculation will help determine how much magnesium you will need to supplement to achieve the desired ratio.

In 15lbs (6.75kg) of hay :


15lbs (6.75kg) of hay x 18.16oz/lb (454g/0.45kg) x 0.0015 = 10.2g magnesium

15lbs (6.75kg) of hay x 454g/lb (454g/0.45kg x 0.008 = 54.5 g calcium

In order to achieve the 2:1 ratio: (54.5/2) – 0.41oz (10.2g) = 0.68oz (17g) of magnesium must be added.


Magnesium oxide is 60 percent magnesium: 17/60 = 1.12oz (28g) of the mixture will provide 0.68oz (17g) of magnesium.“

https://thehorsesguide.com/magnesium-for-horses-what-you-should-know/


As we can see from the above example - to balance out the high calcium of the forage, taking into account what little mag is in the forage, another 28g of magnesium oxide needs to be added to bring the cal/mag ratio to 2:1.

Who even thinks that 20g+ could be needed to a horse not in work just to balance out high calcium levels in hay?

( The agri industry often adds calcium to field to balance acidity caused by chemical esters, and this causes all grasses/forage to be stupidly high in calcium, while lacking in other important minerals, thus having a knock-on effect to all forage fed animals and their bone/muscle/heart and general health )

Excess calcium tightens, and magnesium relaxes. This happens with blood arteries too.

So, in brief! I suspect your pony needs much more magnesium than is currently being given. The only way to truly know how much more is to test your forage.
Take a handful from various bales, mix it together, then take one handful from the mix and send that in for testing. That way you will have an average of your hay stack.
If you feed haylage just test a handful from your current open bale as you cant cut open the plastic on all bales, introduce oxygen and feed months later without possible moulding issues.

Forageplus test hay now dont they?

The above article i linked is a really good in-depth look at magnesium in horses with in-depth info on excessive magnesium aswell as deficiency symptoms.

The other 2 things i’d add is ground linseed, for omega 3 which helps cell membrane health. The cell membranes have receptors for hormones/sugars/proteins etc, and if the membrane is not healthy, the receptors are damaged/missing/dysfunctional. Omega 3 grows healthy cell membranes. Omega 6 inflames cell membranes. Fresh green grass contains lots of omega 3, but in winter there’s much less grass for horses, so to add omega 3 linseed in winter helps, especially a horse with sugar dysregulation issues/ppid/ems etc.
Hay has virtually negligible levels of omega 3 compared to fresh grass.
Give a heaped handful per day.

I’d also give a probiotic. Protexin is good but has ground alfalfa powder as a base, so although the dose it tiny, if your horse has an alfalfa allergy, it wont help. From a nutritional point of view, the teaspoon of alfalfa a day is negligible.
Brewers yeast contains probiotic and b vits which help calm the nerves. I’d personally go for brewers yeast. It’s cheap bought in bulk. It tastes strong so add 1 teaspoon and work up to a tablespoon, while the pony gets used to the taste. Mine love the yeasty taste.

With the linseed and brewers yeast, add them to the diet separately, one after the other. Then you can monitor any changes to the added ingredients, and if there is any reaction, you know the cause.
Wait 10 days roughly before introducing another.

Sorry for the long post, it wasn’t intended, but i realised i needed to explain my one liner of ‘probably more magnesium needed’!

To have got to the stage of her muscles softening the diet focus and change has helped. I think a forage test is a strong place to focus on to really home in on the macro mineral levels and see if they are the reason for your ponies issues.

 

[Dexter]

I'd get her off the grass, but not stabled which might not be possible. Muzzling would be a compromise but given the situation I would move heaven and earth to get her in a temporary situation where you control every morsel she eats. Is turning out in a school or concrete area a possibility for a week or so?

The fact her muscles are sore tells you its a PSSM problem, which is good news as that can be managed.

I wouldnt be worrying about forage testing and macro minerals right now. You know shes got PSSM, you know shes very symptomatic, and the treatment for that is well tested. Park the other stuff for now so its not overwhelming.

What's the diet now? I know you changed it, but what to?

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I saw a friend yesterday who's horse was finally diagnosed with ems and pssm. He was a bombproof cob. A year on , after being stabled for months, he is allowed out for 2 hours. He is a nightmare to lead etc, poor boy. She needs to work him but dare not ride him herself. She is hopefully getting someone to ride him which will hopefully improve him. It's been a long hard slog but she's got a way to go yet.

 

[SEL]

I saw a friend yesterday who's horse was finally diagnosed with ems and pssm. He was a bombproof cob. A year on , after being stabled for months, he is allowed out for 2 hours. He is a nightmare to lead etc, poor boy. She needs to work him but dare not ride him herself. She is hopefully getting someone to ride him which will hopefully improve him. It's been a long hard slog but she's got a way to go yet.

Poor boy. Stabled for months is the worst thing you can do for PSSM ?

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Poor boy. Stabled for months is the worst thing you can do for PSSM ?

He was stabled for ages as the vets couldn't find out what was wrong with him.

 

[Dexter]

He was stabled for ages as the vets couldn't find out what was wrong with him.

If she can find sparse, large acreage turnout or a track system, the very best thing she can do now is turn him away. Let him move himself and heal his muscles before she tries to ride.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

If she can find sparse, large acreage turnout or a track system, the very best thing she can do now is turn him away. Let him move himself and heal his muscles before she tries to ride.

I agree. Vets have told her 2/3 hours out a day muzzled which is what she is doing.

 

[Dexter]

Vets know so little about PSSM its scary!

 

[SEL]

Vets know so little about PSSM its scary!

I asked for blood tests once when mine was stuff and grumpy. Told the vet she'd possibly tied up at weekend after hunt had spooked them and she kept saying she should be on box rest. I politely as I could suggested she read Valbergs research on glycogen storage diseases which said P1 horses need to be turned out after a tie up. To be fair she listened and then said all she was taught at uni was box rest ?